Optical HD Battle May Be Over: HD DVD Wins
December 6th, 2006 | by Rob Enderle
Nearly a year and a half ago I wrote a column saying that Blu-Ray wins or nothing does. This showcases the reality of doing predictions because while the analysis held up, events did not pan out as anticipated and by any current measure HD DVD will end this year with a decisive win.
The basis for the prediction, which did accurately point out that Sony’s win here might actually cost them more than a loss, was the PS3 and the forecast volumes for that product. Back in August of 2005 we did know that HD DVD, which used DVD production technology, would be easier to bring to market but it simply did not seem reasonable that Sony would put their PlayStation franchise at risk for anything but a technology they were absolutely certain they could bring to market on time.
That turned out to be incorrect. The problems with Blu-Ray have created extreme cost and execution problems for Sony and now their premier division (instead of being the profit center for Sony) is predicting they will take a $1.5B loss next year largely resulting from this decision. To put this in perspective, just think what would happen if Apple’s iPod group, instead of generating massive profit, suddenly dropped into massive loss. Now you can see why the Sony PlayStation division just changed out their top executives.
Why HD DVD is Winning
When you talk to either the HD DVD or the Blu-Ray camp you get the sense that neither actually watches movies much. Both cite features as the reason why folks will pick one or the other. Yes there is a lame shooting game in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (Blu-Ray) and there are a ton of things you can do interactively in HD DVD (including changing car colors in one scene in The Fast and Furious III: Tokyo Drift). But the movie market moves on quality of movie, price of player, and price and availability of media.
At launch HD DVD players were about half the price of Blu-Ray players and the movie price for HD DVD is generally running about $5 less. In addition, many of the new HD DVD movies also have regular DVD side which means that buyers, most of which will have both HD DVD and DVD decks, will get better value with HD DVD than with Blu-Ray – that’s the theory anyways.
All that being said, the killing blow may have been done by Microsoft who decided to bring to market a $200 HD DVD option for their Xbox 360 which has been in market a year longer than Sony and is projected to have a near 20x installed base advantage by year end (10M Xbox 360 to 600K PS3). Note that both projections are aggressive but Sony was supposed to originally ship 2M PS3s into the market during the 4th quarter and actual numbers (given they had under 200K at launch) may be closer to 400K. And with a recall possible there is a chance they might not even make that. Add to this that the Xbox 360 HD DVD drive is for movies only, so each one counts for movie viewing while PS3s may not be used to watch movies and you have a situation where the active movie player advantage by year-end should be between 4x and 6x better for HD DVD over Blu-Ray.
Finally, HP who had been a big Blu-Ray supporter and dominates the Media Center PC market, introduced a $100 HD DVD upgrade for their PCs (Sony’s Blu-Ray VIAO solution was just dropped to $749). The impact of this last move is still too early to measure but there is no comparably priced (not even close) solution using Blu-Ray.
If you go to Amazon and look you can see HD DVDs are solidly ahead and this is before the impact of either the Microsoft or the HP moves, many of which won’t be opened until Christmas or haven’t yet been shipped (HP).
Now Sony will stick with a technology for years after the market has decided on another path and they do have some very strong supporters which include Dell, Apple, and Disney. Dell traditionally has been the PC bellwether company, Apple has the most loyal customer base, and Disney is the only Studio that people ask for by name. So these folks, particularly Sony, could drag this on for years. But if that is the case not only will many in the industry not make money, Sony will probably lose the most because they are still the ones doing the heavy lifting (In addition, after the battery problems, neither Dell nor Apple is as close to Sony as they had been).
Right now it appears impossible for Blu-Ray to gain a substantial lead on HD DVD, even after massive investment, they likely could only close the gap. If the HD market depends on the emergence of one as a standard and Blu-Ray no longer has a chance to be that standard, how long will it be before the Blu-Ray supporters follow HP and switch sides?
Do You Want One Standard?
Now you can evidently help drive this if you are so inclined. There is a petition that has been set up for you to voice your support if you believe that there should be only one and HD DVD is that one. You can find the petition here . Evidently they had collected 2,300 signatures at the time of this writing.
The petition was put together by HD NOW where the folks have collected a rather interesting list of supporting material which goes far farther than I have on supporting the conclusion that we’ve prematurely crossed over to the point where HD DVD has won the High Definition DVD competition.
Does Blu-Ray Die?
Blu-Ray has substantial storage capacity advantages for data and could survive as a high capacity personal computer storage medium. While expensive, one non-Sony vendor’s upcoming Blu-Ray laptop solution costs around $800 on top of a $3000 notebook but it gives that product an unmatched removable media capability. But this is a vastly better storage solution for a high-end PC it isn’t a high volume high definition movie watching solution.
So BluRay could indeed survive but probably not for movies only for PS3 games and high-end optical backup. The real question is does the PS3 survive or whether there will ever be a PS4. Some are saying that the PS3 is in deep trouble and some are saying the PS4 will never arrive with massive game defections from PS3 to Xbox.
Wrapping Up
The market wants one solution for High Definition video and we are already starting to see high definition downloads through services like Xbox live. Apple’s iTV is expected to go even further when it launches early next year. It may actually be too late for either of these platforms to move; if folks move aggressively to downloads for high definition content and if High Definition pay per view cable offerings continue to improve, even if I’m correct and HD DVD has won, it may have actually prevailed too late in the process to survive for long.
Be that as it may, with a 4x to 6x advantage by year end, you’d have to conclude that HD DVD has reached a point where it can’t lose and Blu-Ray is only now in a position to ensure both platforms lose. That last option still appears most likely if the market doesn’t move aggressively to one HD platform.
Post Your Comment...Comments
Sean on Dec 6th, 2006 at 1:49 PM:
Sales numbers for HD-DVDs are a tiny fraction of those of DVDs. No HD-DVD is in the top 80 at Amazon. DVD players are still outselling HD-DVD players by more than 5 to 1. So who really cares what the sales numbers for either new format are? They're both basically a fringe item. They won't amount to more than a tiny blip on the accounting sheets of the movie studios and electronics manufacturers this year. None of them are going to make any decisions based on speculation of profit being lost to the other format for quite some time. And the public is even less interested at this point. A year or two from now the sales totals for one month will dwarf everything sold by both formats combined to date. Look at how well either's doing then, and you *might* be able to make some sort of prediction. Right now you just look like somebody who knows nothing about business making rnadom uneducated guesses.
Luke on Dec 6th, 2006 at 3:01 PM:
Wow, I hope neither one of you owns a HDTV. I remember a few years ago people saying they would flop too. Also, I remember people laughing at me 8 years ago when I bought my $400 DVD Player (what a waste of $$ VHS is where its at). Now I have the HD-DVD drive for the XBOX 360, and I also download HD movies via the Live network - and let me tell you its fantastic. I are no bugs and I have HD quality media on demand, and don't even have to get up if i dont want to. The only downside currently is the availability of titles and the $, but DVD's were quite sparse and expensive when they first launched. Regarding the article, as popular as downloads will be, there still will be a demand for traditional media, HD or BluRay. Its a no lose situation for me, as i walk OTD at Best Buy with a HD-DVD player and 3 movies for $270. Even if BlueRay wins, the worse that will happen is that I have to buy a dual format player in a few years. I still will have to buy DVD's until the studio war is over, but if possible its HD-DVD all the way!!!
Rod on Dec 6th, 2006 at 3:34 PM:
Yea HD-DVD FTW!!!!
Mark on Dec 6th, 2006 at 9:03 PM:
Blu-ray is my hope. I am a wedding videographer and the customers are demanding their raw footage. So, if HDDVD wins, fine, but 3 layers to pull off the capacity of Blu-Ray seems a bit of a desperate measure. Blu-ray is the way. Look at the battle between VHS and Beta...then it was quality, but VHS won and Beta was out, but I now am a proud owner of a Beta recorder/player and I have tapes with 20 year old recordings that look superb. But Beta did not win. With my customers wanting their raw footage along with the completed product, I have to opt for Blu-ray. And the data backup option is definitely attractive too. So the same drive for burning my weddings and other HD projects and mass data backup seems the obvious choice.
Paul on Dec 6th, 2006 at 10:19 PM:
Sony has not made a durable product in ten years, their customer support is non-existent and they are the kings of the dead formats (Elcaset, Beta, UMD, etc.). I cannot imagine how anyone would have faith in a company that foisted the rootkit fiasco on the unsuspecting public last year.
Every Sony product that I have ever bought has failed prematurely (2 TVs, cordless phone, reel-to-reel recorder, portable CD player and more).
I wouldn't use another Sony product if it was given to me free.
Paul
Bill Sheppard on Dec 6th, 2006 at 11:02 PM:
This is the third place this week I've seen a similar article by the author proclaiming HD DVD the victor over Blu-ray. The first one claimed Xbox 360 HD DVD add-on sales would outsell the PS3 by a factor of ten by the end of the year (2M vs 200K), an incredibly absurd forecast considering there is almost zero possibility there could be that many blue laser diodes in existence, let alone enough demand among Xbox 360 owners to consume that many devices. At least this time he's scaled it back to 4x-6x.
The author's entire argument is based on success of the Xbox 360 add-on, ignoring the fact that the add-on is almost exclusively of interest to existing Xbox 360 owners and will make little difference outside that demographic. He also completely ignores the overwhelming vendor and studio support advantage for Blu-ray and the availability of recordable media making Blu-ray a far more compelling PC accessory.
This "analysis" smells very strongly of paid analyst research to support a particular viewpoint, a tactic Microsoft is widely known for in its battle against Linux. Oh, look! The first company listed on the Enderle Group's website as those he has advised is Microsoft! Imagine that!
mcm on Dec 7th, 2006 at 5:15 AM:
From Bill Sheppard:
"This "analysis" smells very strongly of paid analyst research to support a particular viewpoint, a tactic Microsoft is widely known for in its battle against Linux. Oh, look! The first company listed on the Enderle Group's website as those he has advised is Microsoft! Imagine that!"
Bill Sheppard is Senior Business Development for Digital Television at Sun Microsystems. And as such is a paid shill for blu-ray. Hey "talkstr8t"!
Justin on Dec 7th, 2006 at 7:07 AM:
I currently have both a PS3 and an Xbox360 with HD-DVD Player attached. I will say that from a movie watching perspective they are both fantastic. But I have to say if given the choice I will go with a BluRay disc every time. For two main reasons. HDMI output on the PS3 & the PCM uncompressed audio from HDMI. Neither of which is possible with the 360. Not to mention compared to the silent running PS3 the Xbox 360 sounds like a Mac truck, it's distractingly loud. My wife even commented on how much more enjoyable the PS3 viewing was. As I start building up a collection I may eventually go with a stand alone unit (either HD-DVD or BluRay). I really do feel that it is too early to tell which format will come out on top, considering the vast majority of consumers believe standard dvd's are HD. Having ANY HD content on a disc format is going to confuse them in the first place. Alot of people out there love to hate Sony, but you really can never count them out. Also take into consideration that Disney (and their BILLIONS of viewers) and Fox (and their BILLIONS of viewers ((in the Star Wars series alone))) are BluRay supporters for now.... For year end, yes, HD-DVD may have come out on top of a very small hill, but who knows how this next year will progress?
Mitch on Dec 7th, 2006 at 7:43 AM:
Also, HD-DVD was released earlier than Blu-Ray. The only two companies which are providing HD-DVD players at the time are MS and Toshiba, whereas for Blu-Ray we have Panasonic, Samsung, Sony's standalone, Sony PS3 and the Philips BD player (in the new year we can add Pio aswell) HD-DVD seemed to win on Picture and soundquality due to codec issues. Based on reviews @ Highdefdigest, we can now say that Blu-Ray no longer has Picture and Soundquality problems, meaning all differences are gone!
The PS3 alone has a far better response time, loading time and is the best BD player on the Market. As a HD-DVD owner, I can say that Toshiba did a great job on their players, BUT, unfortunately to say, I still have more faith in Blu-Ray. It seems People like to bash everything made by Sony, it's just pathetic!
Alex on Dec 7th, 2006 at 9:24 AM:
There will be no win for HD-DVD, it could happen that both win or both loose, but Blu-ray will be soon in front. DVD will lead for some time yet.
PS3 could be trailing XBox 360, but XBox don't have a HD-Player, and people are buying consoles for games in great majority, few will buy a 360 with a HD-DVD (that together cost the same of a PS3 with better capabilities and integration). PS2 is selling a lot more than XBox360 (that outsell PS2 during a short period) and in time those user base eventually will go to PS3 camp not XBox360.
When HD formats arrive in mass, there will be much more Blu-ray players than HD-DVD players.
In the top blu-ray format is a better one, as was Beta; in Beta days Sony was alone, not now!...
Rob Enderle on Dec 7th, 2006 at 9:27 AM:
Thanks for the comments!
A couple of things I think were missed. One is that my conclusion remains that both will probably lose long term (even Microsoft has limited HD movie downloads now) if we don't choose one quickly. The other, and I didn't mention this, is that with a good set and current $125 DVD player the movie quality at 8 to 10 look nearly the same between HD formats and regular DVDs.
I am getting kind of tired of employees tied to an opposing view jumping in and often accusing me of bias. If you look at my original Blu-Ray piece (link in column) you will see that I'm simply being consistent. The Blu-Ray win was based on then projected PS3 sales and no Xbox product, PS3 belly flopped and Xbox got an accessory we didn't know about back then.
Bill on Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:53 AM:
I love the prediction, but I think that Blu-ray will become the winner. Not in spite of your reasons, but when I was at CEDIA, I saw very few HDDVD players from manufactures, and a ton of them from Blu-Ray. I also visited the HDDVD exibit acorss the street from the convention center and it was super cheesy. I also have been seeing a ton more advertising for Blu-Ray than HDDVD. This tells me that they have batter funding and have a more vested interest in seeing it win. Lastly, when I watched HDDVD and Blu-Ray I couldnt tell much of a difference between those and a good upconverting DVD player (specifically Oppo's).
Ian Bell on Dec 7th, 2006 at 10:57 AM:
I personally think that Blu-Ray is a better product, but I think HD-DVD will win for several reasons:
1)They were first to market
2)HD-DVD Players are roughly half the price of Blu-Ray players
3)Sony flubbed the PS3 launch (and I think people will buy the PS3 to play games, not movies)
The real key here is price, and that is what will compel consumers to purchase HD-DVD players in the first place. If you can't afford something, it doesn't matter how good it is anyways.
Jason on Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:04 AM:
This article is bush league.
HD-DVD players DO NOT ship with XBOX 360's so the 10M install base by end of the year prediction means nothing. The real question is how many HD-DVD players addons will Microsoft sell by the end of year?
The article also does not mention anything about the rumours that Apple will add Blueray to their computers in the new year which could boost Blueray.
Nor does it talk about any data regarding third-party Blueray or HDDVD player sales (eg. you see Samsung Blueray players demoing in every store). How many non-Toshiba HD-DVD players are there in Best Buy?
At this point it looks like HDDVD has a better selection of movies. The article doesn't get into this either.
Finally the article has spelling mistakes ... Why HD-DVD is Wining .... Winning maybe???
Personally I'd like to see HD-DVD winning but if that's the argument you're going to make at least present the facts correctly and cover all your bases.
Bill on Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:18 AM:
Read it again Jason, Rob never said that the player comes with it "Microsoft who decided to bring to market a $200 HD-DVD OPTION for their Xbox 360"
RX8 on Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:23 AM:
I think Jason is missing the point which is that at this point in time HD-DVD is winning.
The Title clearly states the war "May" be over, it doesn't say it is over.
It doesn't matter how many manufacturers are making Blu-Ray players, if they are not out in the market place (and few are) then its a mute point right?
As for selection of movies, HD-DVD does NOT have a better selection of movies, they have the same as Blu-Ray. There are very few if any movie studios that are going exclusive to either camp. The article does point out that HD-DVD movies are about $5 less than Blu-Ray.
Marc Kemmer on Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:30 AM:
First of all Blue-Ray is crap and second you are the idiot. Why? Because you are the one who payed 1200$ for a technology that's not finished yet. 1200$ to watch grain and pixel crap and movies with DTS sound like T2 or Lord of war are skipping frames during playback. No thanks i prefer watching movies with crystal clear picture and sound quality on HD-DVD. Half the price of Blue-Ray and triple the pleasure of watching movies. Bye Bye.
Marc Kemmer on Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:40 AM:
My last post was for MARK above who said HD-DVD is crap and of course for all the other Blue lovers. Just name me one thing why Blue-ray should be better besides the 50 GB capacity. Yeah 50 GB to store movies in MPEG2 and PCM sound. Those 2 codecs are Disc space eaters. 50 GB for a movie and a little Featurette haha. Read the review of Superman returns on Blue-Ray. You must restart the Player several times to get the Disc working on a Player that costs 1200$. They better stop producing Blue-Ray because a lot of Companys are going to loose a lot of money with this crap. HAHA.
fydo on Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:49 AM:
"Why HD-DVD is Wining" ?
Do you mean that HD-DVD is capable of brewing wine now? Or perhaps you spelled "whining" wrong?
Hey, if you need an editor, I wouldn't mind a part time job on the side. :)
RX8 on Dec 7th, 2006 at 11:53 AM:
To Fydo:
Where the heck do you see that? I just did a search and the word "wining" never came up.
fydo on Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:10 PM:
To RX8:
Looks like he just fixed it. I now also notice that Jason caught this spelling mistake as well.
RX8 on Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:23 PM:
Ah, looks like an editor was watching. Cool beans.
Janet on Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:37 PM:
Great article. It could be too soon to see who wins, but Sony has certainly not helped themselves with the PS3 shortage. I think a lot of other manufacturers were betting on them to help spark the cause.
GRADY MILLER on Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:43 PM:
HD-DVD will likely win due to name recognition. BlueRay is an obscure name that people will ignore because of how obscure it is. HD-DVD sounds...right, whether it is or not. I'm not going to sit here and argue the merits of each format, that's been done a million times, and it doesn't matter. Anyone older than 30 will probably remember to some extent the VHS vs. Beta battle of the 80s. VHS won, not because it deserved to win, but because:
1.) it was called VHS, not Beta, which stands for a fish or an unfinished product, which was a wonderful idea, let's name the technology in a way that gives people the impression that it's still not finished!
2.) VHS was a good 30-40% cheaper out of the gate. Initial sales figures are what drive technology, early adopters, if you're the only player in town, it's not as important, but if there are 2 or more formats, you'd better give the customer a competitive price point unless your product is head and shoulders above the other guy, which, on the surface at least, Blueray is not.
3.) In a time when the "Made in the U.S.A." pride was skyrocketing, Beta was clearly marketed by Japan, while VHS was pushed by companies perceived to be more American based. While this isn't as much of an issue now, Microsoft is perceived as a U.S. company, while Sony is very much Japan-based. Again, the effect might be negligible these days, but it's still there, although, as I mentioned before, most people aren't going to have a clue that one format is $ony backed and one is M$ backed.
I stand by my belief that HD-DVD will come out the winner, not because I believe it should, but because it's the easy choice, and as a rule, Americans like the easy choice.
David on Dec 7th, 2006 at 12:55 PM:
I am troubled by the fact that you misspelled HD DVD. Which says to me a number of things. Either you have never seen a HD DVD player. You have never read any HD DVD press releases or you simply do not care. You are only interested in making sure you get blog clicks to show off to the editor so next years ad rates can be set.
Either way why don't you head down to your local Best Buy and take a look at a HD DVD player and then come back here and find out what is missing in the name.
There are also 3 other spelling mistakes in the article but sense HD DVD is the main focus of the article the fact that the item is so misrepresented the additional mistakes will go uncorrected.
Aaron on Dec 7th, 2006 at 3:03 PM:
I love it when people point out spelling mistakes and then have them in their own post (sense = since, maybe?) Especially when it's someone anal enough to worry about the hyphen in HD-DVD.
Greg on Dec 7th, 2006 at 3:20 PM:
Looks like David got Pwned.
Err I meant owned. My bad. Looks like I have my own spelling mistake. :X
Sam on Dec 7th, 2006 at 4:00 PM:
"There are also 3 other spelling mistakes in the article but sense HD DVD is the main focus of the article the fact that the item is so misrepresented the additional mistakes will go uncorrected."
Funny you are criticizing the writer's spelling, yet you spelled "since" as "sense".
I have the HD DVD Player for the Xbox 360. If you already own the system, the $200 HD DVD Player add-on is a very inexpensive way to experience high-def movies. Consider it comes with King Kong ($30) and the 360 Media Remote (sold separately for $30), you are really paying $140 for the player itself...not a bad deal at all.
MrSatyre on Dec 7th, 2006 at 7:32 PM:
When over 80% of the hardware and blank media manufacturers support Blu-ray and not HD DVD, when 5 major movie studios exclusively support Blu-ray and only one exclusively supports HD DVD, when after a shorter time in the market, there are now three (soon to be five) Blu-ray players for consumers to choose from and only one (still) HD DVD player to choose from, when only blockbusters like The Lion King, any Pixar film, Star Wars, any James Bond film, any Alien film or the Pirates of the Caribbean or Spiderman or X-Men films will only be available on Blu-ray and never on HD DVD (nearly 90% of the best selling DVDs last year came from studios supporting Blu-ray), when the music industry's largest content holders and the gaming industry's two biggest console and PC vendors exclusively support Blu-ray and not HD DVD, when Blu-ray can meet tomorrow's movie extras requirements thanks to much larger storage capacity and HD DVD will quickly run out of space because of the limits of their DVD-hugging physical specs, when there are nearly as many Blu-ray titles on the streets as HD DVD (after fewer months), when there are actually MORE exclusive titles available on Blu-ray than on HD DVD...and you STILL think HD DVD will win?
And as for the patently silly claims that HD DVD looks better than Blu-ray when they use exactly the same video and audio codecs (which, by the way, there are no consumer dts-master or Dolby TrueHD DACs to play back any of the HD DVD or Blu-ray discs on---and yes, there are Blu-ray titles with both) and claim one codec looks better than the other when industry and studio experts have watched them side-by-side and can't tell the difference? Thus speak the deliberately misinformed. When you run your tests on defective HD DVD players and defective Blu-ray players, how valid will such tests be? Ever heard of film grain? Ever heard of properly calibrated displays? Why not wait instead until there are more than a few players from each format available before you start comparing apples to apples.
Cost? When Toshiba is losing as much as $200 per player? $400-500 for a complete Xbox 360, and another $200 for an HD DVD add-on drive? Sounds like a PS3 to me! Where's the advantage to that?
Daniel Miller on Dec 7th, 2006 at 8:39 PM:
Sony is probably losing a ton of money on their PS3's as well.
HD DVD will win for one simple reason: price.
The PS3 is technically better than the Nintendo Wii, yet the Wii is blowing it away in sales.
BetaMax was a superior format too, but VHS won simply on price and partners.
bilbo on Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:18 AM:
HD DVD is going to win. While Blu-ray may have more support and higher capacity. But along with that comes higher prices. People care about value, while HD DVD is a much better value it will sell more. Once studios see HD DVD outselling blu-ray they can easily make the switch to HD DVD.
jennie on Dec 8th, 2006 at 2:54 AM:
I'd rather Blu Ray win, just because it has more storage space, plus HD-DVD is harder to say out loud.
zade on Dec 8th, 2006 at 8:16 AM:
"Digital Rights Management"
Blue ray has strong DRM, and the hardware is really intrusively content-protective.
HD-DVD has weak DRM, and you can easily copy your disks.
As someone who refuses to use DRM at all (it's my business which devices I put my files on, thank you), the 'weaker drm hd-dvd' is an instant winner between the two formats.
-zade
dude on Dec 8th, 2006 at 11:06 AM:
I see no clue in buying HD-DVD or BlueRay at all.Looks like soon Hitachi\Maxell 300Gb disk will make 'em all so this is waste of moneys.Do it only if you're really like to sponsor Hollywood and drives manufacturers :)
dude on Dec 8th, 2006 at 11:06 AM:
> Blue ray has strong DRM, and the hardware is really intrusively content-protective.
Actually, people claims that you can copy BlueRay disks using PS3 thingie just ... TODAY!Just add USB blue-ray recorder...duh...
P.S. I have to admit that any DRM sucks anyway."R" in DRM is about Digital Restrictions, not about Rights.
Dave on Dec 8th, 2006 at 11:26 AM:
"Blue ray has strong DRM"
People are already dumping the contents of a blu-ray movie to the PS3 file system. I haven't heard if this dump file can be played or transfered, but thought it was interesting.
Here is the link for those interested:
http://forums.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?t=3716...
Adam on Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:27 PM:
I just want to add that Aaron virtually b*tch-slapped the teeth outta David's skull with that severe owning of the highest caliber. To be a little anal know-it-all who points out spelling mistakes on someone else's comment, only to have them in his own comment, is basically like screaming "watch out" to someone, only to walk in front of a oncoming bus yourself.
As for the war, HD DVD will win. As previously mentioned, it's all about cost. When a consumer goes it to buy one or the other, naturally, they are going to get the one that costs half as much. This is very simple people. The only way Blue ray has a chance of winning is if the manufactures take a loss and start selling the players for half of what they are now. Microsoft did that with the original Xbox, and it was an excellent business decision since they easily recouped not only that money, but millions more in the long run. BTW - I'm buying an Xbox 360 for my kids this Christmas. Not only are they a whole lot easier to get, the actually work.
DZero on Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:33 PM:
Every Sony Product should come with a coupon for a free tattoo of "I'm a Slow Learner" on your forehead.
Rootkits, the push behind Sony/BMG to sue grandmothers, teenagers, dead people and others that have never owned a computer. What more do you need.
I've even removed the Sony logo on one of my old cameras so I don't look like a tard when I have to use it. Needless to say, there will never be any more Sony products in my house.
blue lazer on Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:36 PM:
im hoping HD-dvd comes out on top. Technology wise they're practically the same except for the storage capacities. In fact the new HD-DVD player by toshi will be able to output in 1080P and they will have vastly improved load times. Personally i think the "FULL HD 1080p" marketing is crap for consumers. People dont even know what 1080p is, but they do know its supposed to be better. Once Toshi's version 2.0 players are out the competition will really heat up in HD-DVD's favor.
What people really need to think about is why 50GB's of content on one disc is so important. It never bothered me having to put in disc two for special content. I personally think that Sony rushed this to market (like the PS3). The big movie studios like FOX and Disney will start making HD-DVD's as soon as they realize that the HD-DVD market does exist. They dont give a damn about the technology, they just want to make $$$. It all comes down to $$$
I read a post about a DVD upconverter..well sorry my friend, even the best upconverter cant match the picture quality on anything above 46 inches. DOnt beleive me, just go to Best buy and see for yourself on GIGANTIC TV..not one of the small 40 inch LCD's they have sitting on the end caps. The only thing sony has on it's side right now is a good solid and expensive marketing plan....and we all know how the public reacts to good marketing. Microsoft and Toshi need to get their crap together and strike while the iron is hot, They need to market the hell out of it while they can.
BTW, good article
StooMonster on Dec 8th, 2006 at 12:57 PM:
Many people seem to like Blu-ray simply because it potentially has more storage space. As Rob Enderle says great for PC backup (although an external HD is cheaper and faster) but not a good reason for movies.
The movie / HomeTheater crowd has piled into HD DVD over Blu-ray ... why? Quality.
Blu-ray's original movie releases, and many of them still, use single-layer Blu-ray discs at 25GB and use the legacy MPEG-2 codec.
These movies simply do not look as good as the HD DVD equivalents that all use dual-layer HD DVD discs at 30GB and use the new VC-1 codec.
VC-1 is three times as efficient as MPEG-2 so movies look much better, and often have more storage space too.
Blu-ray has countered this somewhat with production of expensive 50GB discs, but these are filled with MPEG-2 to make it similar (note, not better) quality to HD DVD.
Furthermore, HD DVD supports more advanced HD audio codecs and the players support decoding them and outputting receiver friendly signals -- modern receivers aren't in place to decode lossless HD audio over HDMI yet.
Moreover, you can make your own 720p/1080i/1080p HD DVD format discs with a regular DVD-ROM burner, but with regular 4.5GB or 9GB sized DVD-ROMs. This size is enough to store an hour of HDTV or HD-camcorder footage. So, you can make your own HD video discs really cheaply! You simply cannot do this with Blu-ray.
Jason Howard on Dec 8th, 2006 at 1:56 PM:
@ Dude:
DRM == Digital Rights Management, not Digital Restriction Management (not to be anal...)
I'm still on the fence about which one I would want to win. If HD DVD really is less strict in terms of DRM, then I'd want HD DVD to win out. However, I'd love to have a Blu-ray burner on my PC to backup my system and files.
Dave on Dec 8th, 2006 at 3:12 PM:
And it's Blu-Ray, not BlueRay or Blue ray.
Joe M on Dec 8th, 2006 at 5:00 PM:
I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that the $200 HD DVD drive for the Xbox 360 DOES NOT require an Xbox 360 to operate. Yes, that's right...if you have a pc with Windows XP it already has drivers for the player and then all you need is something like PowerDVD HD software and you are good to go. Awesome news for someone who has a HTPC eh?
Alex on Dec 8th, 2006 at 5:22 PM:
Mark, you do realize that Microsoft's proprietary vc-1 compression technology is far superior to the mpeg 2 encoding that blu-ray dvds use, right? Blu-ray may have more physical space available, but the quality between the two formats right now is essentially identical, with early hd-dvd being of higher quality than early blu-ray since blu-ray started off as single layer 25gb vs. hd-dvds being dual layer at 30gb with better compression.
Thanks for adding such an intelligent comment to this discussion though. sarcasm.
Nick on Dec 8th, 2006 at 5:42 PM:
I don't understand why consumers are supporting the inferior format that is HD-DVD. From time to time, Sony has introduced superior media formats to the market, but they have all failed. For once, can consumers acknowledge the superiority that Blu-ray Disc offers? The only thing carrying the HD-DVD is the inclusion of the "DVD" name of the format. More awareness needs to be created for the Blu-ray Disc format. Hopefully the PlayStation 3 will help this over time. Remember, for every PS3 sold, the Blu-ray Disc user base increases. Give it another year, and there will automatically be close to 10 million Blu-ray owners (PS3)while HD-DVD will start to trail behind, as it is not built into the Xbox 360 as standard.
I have hope and faith in the Blu-ray format, and will do my part in supporting it and increasing awareness.
Chris on Dec 8th, 2006 at 5:47 PM:
I think that ANY argument about one format or the other "winning" is a waste of breath. They will both be losers compared to DVD for several years to come. You have to think of this from the opposite side of the knowledge scale. We're a bunch of geeks, and we know more about this than 80% of the rest of the country, so we're going to have a totally different opinion than Joe Schmoe.
DVD took over from VHS because it looked considerably better on a standard television. Yes it initially cost more for both players and discs, but there was a drastic return on your investment. Unfortunately, both HD-DVD and BluRay only look better on a large high-def TV. (Which most of the country doesn't own) Therefore, the majority of consumers won't even consider either of them an option for several years, and by then it will mostly be due to convergence and/or price parity.
My prediction is that there is no winner and the only people who will care what format anything is in, are the technically inclined with too much time on their hands (namely us). 2 or 3 years from now, everyone else will just buy a HD-DVD/BluRay/DVD/CD/MP3/8-track player from Best Buy because it's 10% off in this weeks flier and be happy that they won't have to actually read the box to determine if the movie will play on their TV or not.
kompression on Dec 8th, 2006 at 6:00 PM:
In response to Mark's comments: You're just talking crap; not making any sense. Obviously you've never compared movies on both formats. To begin wtih HD-DVD uses a way better codec than Blu-ray with movies looking MUCH better and on top of that is cheaper even by volume. Sony eventually switched over their original codecs to the ones that Toshiba was using to begin with and still is using for their HD DVD formats. It's not Betamax's fault that they couldn't produce in sufficient quantities to lower cost. No matter how good your crap is if you don't lower production costs to a price point that the majority of the market will bear than that's your fault. Someone else will and that's Toshiba. So what if your storage capacity is 2x or 3x as more dense when your costs are precisely 2x or 3x the cost of the competing product. Just buy more discs. Like the article said it's about major adoption so Sony screwed up BIG TIME and allowed their 'Big Company' disease to cloud their judgement to think that everyone would adopt their product regardless of price point. Just because they're Sony doesn't mean good things come from that. Samsung and LG are also eating at them at every turn. Sony deserves it. Arrogant retards. Get over yourself.
RX8 on Dec 8th, 2006 at 6:12 PM:
Here's a thought.
As mentioned, throw out the quality factor and assume that to the consumer they both look the same. Who wins now?
The lower price-point.
End of discussion. I think Toshiba knows this which is why they are taking a loss on the price of the player just to get it into homes.
Southpaw on Dec 8th, 2006 at 10:39 PM:
I was in walmart looking for Super Man Returns HD-DVD. Almost all the HD-DVD's were sold out. But the Blu-Ray were fully stocked. A woman was like blu-ray has so many more movies. I has to point out to here that HD-DVD has more but is mostly sold out that is why you see so few movies. The Blu-Ray was fully stocked. BTW Super Man Returns HD-DVD was sold out. There were 12 Blu-Ray copies.
CJ on Dec 9th, 2006 at 1:49 AM:
I am not sure why everyone is so focused on HD-DVD versus Blu-Ray. I don't think either will win. On-Demand video will take over the world. Harddrives cost less than a blu-ray movie. You can download HD-DVD movies over the internet. 50GB for one movie is ridiculous. The folks who actually bought a PS3 to use have found a way to rip Blu-Ray movies to the hard drive so they don't have to keep putting it in the drive. People will want portability...neither of which provide. The saving grace of HD-DVD is the fact it has both formats to allow watching on a regular DVD.
I want a movie that will fit on a Mini-SD card that will hold my movies so I can take it with me on my portable player. They're up to 8GB and heading upwards...even if it was a tad bigger in form factor to support larger capacity. I still remember buying my first 200MB hard drive for $300 thinking this is all the storage I will need. Now you can buy a lot more for a lot less.
For those online spell checkers, if that's your arguement for why the author is not credible, you should check the entire web as well since this is not the only place you will find them.
Dave on Dec 9th, 2006 at 3:37 AM:
Stop lying the people. This is lame and too low to go.
HD DVD is dead and even those last attempts to save it wont do.
No one jumps support, and will ever.
This desperation makes more harm than it helps to save hd dvd...
Everywhere is discussed that this was sponsored by Toshiba! :)
http://foxbd.com/
http://www.disneybluray.com/
http://www.playb3yond.com/
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/
http://blogs.zdnet.com/blu-ray/
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/studio/
http://www.learningcenter.sony.us/assets/hpd/blura...
http://www.sicolamartin.com/bluraybroadcast/
http://www.gadgetell.com/2006/08/nvidia-ceo-stands...
Richard on Dec 9th, 2006 at 10:32 AM:
I'm always amused by analysts and consumers boldly proclaiming who will win. WE DON'T KNOW YET! It is still early in the game.
If I had to put money on the table, I would bet on HD-DVD for a few reasons:
1. Sony can't manage a successful product launch. There is a serious supply chain problem with the components to build the blu-ray laser mechanisms, which is part of the hold up of PS3 shipments. Note that Samsung got a Blu-Ray player out to market before the company that invented the blasted thing. If I were working at Sony, somebody's head would roll for that.
2. Sony has an obsession with owning the platform. Memory Stick, Betamax (not BetaCAM or DigiBeta), MiniDisc...the landscape is littered with technology failures.
3. The vast "studio" and "manufacturer" support doesn't mean much when they aren't actually doing anything with it. At least I can walk into a Best Buy and buy a $200 HD-DVD add on for my XBox 360, or a $500 Toshiba player. The only option for Blu-Ray I can find today is the $1,000 Samsung player - and I will never, EVER, spend that kind of money on something with the Samsung brand on it.
4. All the supposed "interactivity" features on Blu-Ray have yet to be exploited. People buy games to play around, but people buy movies in order to watch them.
5. Releases to date comparing HD-DVD titles to Blu-Ray titles give the quality edge to HD-DVD. Blu-Ray disc authors have to stop using MPEG-2 and get on board with VC-1, and spend more time fretting over image quality.
6. The price of HD-DVD titles appears to average around $5 less than Blu-Ray titles.
I don't think HD-DVD will win as much as Blu-Ray will lose. Both camps are screwing up left, right and center - but it appears more likely that Sony will screw-up more frequently and to a greater extent than the DVD Consortium members that backed HD-DVD.
One of the best opportunities for propelling Blu-Ray adoption is the computer market, which HD seems to be ignoring at its own peril.
Gumbo on Dec 9th, 2006 at 6:40 PM:
oh boy i cant wait to be able to see the hairs in actress's nostrils on HD DVD!!!!
Justin on Dec 10th, 2006 at 6:49 AM:
When did a great discussion of a new exciting technology require grade school name calling? People are dropping things like :
"I've even removed the Sony logo on one of my old cameras so I don't look like a tard when I have to use it"
"Arrogant retards. Get over yourself."
or my favorite thus far :
"They better stop producing Blue-Ray because a lot of Companys are going to loose a lot of money with this crap. HAHA."
Alot of really intelligent comments. And god forbid someone spell something incorrectly.
This board has brought up a ton of great points and counter-points. I hope that it can continue with smart (instead of smart-ass) topics.
I personally am on neither team. I am enjoying watching how things unfold. I open a magazine and see BluRay ads all over the place yet no players. I see people purchasing HD-DVD's and trying to play them in their dvd players (because not every disc is a combo) and they get confused and angry because it says "DVD" and they don't understand the difference. I watch as PS3's are made fun of and given grief because of being overpriced, even though all those who are behind HD-DVD drives being attached to their 360's are paying the same amount for that option. I have already put the entire X-Men trilogy and Superman 1,2 & Returns on my PS3 hard drive via files ripped from the DVD's, yet the 360 does not offer this (without streaming it from a MediaPC). Not to mention I can use my PSP to continue watching the movie if I want to go to bed or the bathroom. Pretty cool stuff, but that's an arguement of PS3 vs 360. And I will say I enjoy both systems thoroughly. But this is an issue of BluRay vs HD-DVD and I still believe that it is too early to declare one a winner. It will eventually come down to which system can fight the longest, and continue to put out products, market them appropriately, and yes, price them competively. Anyone remember Circuit City and Divx? That format was cheaper, and where are they today? Another great point was made regarding on-demand or flash media.
Thank you to almost everyone on here who has been making this whole debate more enjoyable and put thought, time and effort into their comments.
Chris on Dec 10th, 2006 at 9:02 AM:
Remember old betamax versus the VHS and guess who won? Come on playing same game all over again. My opinion is a dual drive would have been better. HD will win because of price. You can get a HD drive for pc or xbox 360 for 300 bucks versus over 1000 for blue ray and look at shortages of PS 3's. I know of other technologies in the wings that make both ancient. Newer devices are coming. Look at editor and over a year his opinion has changed. Granted storage blu-ray wins hands down but ever tried burning a Blu-Ray disk? Try over and hour. Price of burners are around 1000 bucks.
Wasn't fact that beta was Sony only thing that killed them in the end. Granted that VHS was not as good but more readily available and cheaper. Learn from history or repeat same demise over.
Ian Bell on Dec 10th, 2006 at 12:18 PM:
Here is another great story: http://news.digitaltrends.com/article11886.html
This company spent sometime on the web trying to get a general concensus as to what online users like or dislike and it sounds like Sony's Blu-Ray is losing out so far.
"Many posters also felt Sony was an "arrogant" company. Another 21 percent of online consumers based their dislike for Blu-ray on Sony's decision to include Blu-ray in the PlayStation 3 gaming console. "
As mentioned, I think price will always trump technology for more consumers. I also think that Sony is garnering a bad reputation between their battery recalls and poor technical support.
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me" maybe people are starting to wisen up a little?
Henry on Dec 11th, 2006 at 2:54 AM:
Blu-Ray will win out for one simple reason, the name is so much better than HD-DVD.
HD DVD name is cumbersome & confusing, while Blu-Ray easily comes to mind, and sounds cool as well.
justin on Dec 11th, 2006 at 5:41 AM:
You know what Henry, I agree with you 100% on the name thing. HD-DVD just sounds like DVD, because again I believe most consumers think DVD's are HD already. But BluRay....You can't forget it and it makes someone stop and say "what is that?"
I also forgot to mention earlier that alot of early BluRay discs may have gotten poor reviews because of the Samsung players (which Samsung has accepted full blame for being full of their own errors). Has anyone read any reviews of someone who has gone back and re-reviewed earlier BluRay discs? I'd be interested in finding out how much of the dislike of the quality of those earlier titles was in fact the hardware.
TechFreak on Dec 11th, 2006 at 7:41 AM:
Here is another great discussion we are having in the message boards: http://forums.digitaltrends.com/showthread.php?t=1...
Frank on Dec 11th, 2006 at 3:20 PM:
Sheesh, Sony fanboys just never never learn.
You proudly wave the Sony flag but can't admit almost everything they make now is crap.
Their TVs have been crap for years.
Their stereo receivers have been crap for years.
Beta, UMD, SACD, MemoryStick, etc... FAIL
Yet like clockwork Sony pushes their propaganda of a superior format and like idiots you rally behind them.
Blu-Ray has been one big screw thus far but the only responses are "check your spelling" or "Blue Ray wins because it is Blu Ray" or "BEst format ever because it is 50gigs ". Sheesh.
Any the best excuse? "Wait..."
Wait for the Samsung player. *Overpriced and Broken*
Wait until more movies are released. *Missing features, poor mastering, missing lossless audio*
wait for the Sony player. *Overpriced Crap*
Wait for the PS3. *Only 200k in US launch. Still poor sales!*
Wait for Christmas. *2 weeks and still poor movies sales!*
Wait for Springtime. *Gladly!*
Poor codecs, buggy hardware, buggy software, no extra features on the discs, wasting space on discs just to say they have released a 50gig movie, poor sales, poor movie selections, obviously very demented owners, substandard sound, no TrueHD and what do you get? Another poor Sony proprietary format.
HD-DVD - slow bootup time, some bugs, but already in the 2nd Generation of players. Lossless audio, full featured discs.
No 1080p - who cares? More marketing crap.
$350 G1 -$500 G2machines.
Yes, wait for Blu-Ray to win!
J. Benavides on Dec 11th, 2006 at 6:47 PM:
I don't know what to tell you guys. I am not a video expert, nor am I am econ professor. I'm just a guy who loves to watch movies, and who loves HD content. I buy Sony products (I have one of their HDTV's) and Microsoft products.
I also play video games. I plan to buy a PS3 when they become cheaper and readily avilable. But that having been said, I will not play blu-ray on a $600 gaming system. In my experience (with my PS2) optical drives have a life span. The more you use it, the sooner it will eventualy die on you. If I spend $600 on a video game, I want it to last as long as damn near possible.
I purchased the HD-DVD add on for the 360 because, when it dies (not if, but when) I can walk down to Best Buy or Circuit City and buy the stand alone player at the current market rate.
Long story short, the HD-DVD add on for 360 made the jump to HD format in home movies cheap and easy for me. I am not the typical early adopter, and I would have picked up either format if the price was right; blu-ray just didn't make it easy or affordable.
That having been said, I think the formats are comperable, and for the benefit of the American consumer I agree with Rob; Sony better settle this quick or lose their shirt on this one.
-J
gt350 on Dec 11th, 2006 at 9:11 PM:
when talking to customers about their a/v needs the hd dvd/blue ray dvd question always comes up. after giving my recommendations, they settle for neither, because of the format war, and they respond by saying, plain dvds are fine. thats what should worry the two combatants!
Adam on Dec 12th, 2006 at 8:25 AM:
Sony's Format Will Win!!!!!! Every format they came out with won. Here are some examples.
Laser Disc
Mini Disc
BetaMax
Digital 8
The list goes on and on....er wait those formats don't exist anymore.. : ) I guess I was wrong
Jimmy Dolan on Dec 12th, 2006 at 9:35 AM:
One more thing to know, the Xbox 360 HD DVD player can also be used on a PC or laptop! So for $200, you can upgrade your PC with HD DVD as long as it has a USB 2.0 port.
Jim on Dec 12th, 2006 at 10:12 AM:
It is unfortunate that in the realm of technology, we are still discussing media formats.
The reason that MP3 or iPod (AAC) is the number one selling media type and media deivce is because consumer don't want to carry media anymroe.
In other words, we (consumers) are beyond media and media types.
Let me download my HD content...let me download my Xbox 360 games...heck...let me download whatever. I no longer give a hoot about carrying media, or what 'type' of media wins a war.
Now that I have said that...let's talk reality...for $199 I purchased the Xbox 360 HD DVD, simply because I owned a 360...and at $199 who cares if I eat the dollars later...
Downloading is the wave of the future...regardless, of who wins this media type war...
I know apple gets it...and I am rooting for their iMovies to take off...until then I live with two media centers...Apple, and Microsoft...
I think that by 2008, we won't be talking meida type...and has Microsoft figured that out with a removable hard drive...maybe...and is this Xbox 360 (external) HD DVD, just a 'placeholder' for now...maybe...I think they do get it.
DJ on Dec 12th, 2006 at 12:03 PM:
I too went the HD DVD why? i spent alot of time reseaching threw the internet and found that HD DVD was a better choice. And yes I have an Xbox 360, and I'm enjoying the HD add on. Enjoying movie @ 1080i !
j pettit on Dec 12th, 2006 at 4:57 PM:
I have the Toshiba HD-A1 player and an Optoma HD70 Projector. All I can say is awesome! Not only is HD incredibly film like, but the Toshiba HD player makes standard DVD look very, very good. The best upscaler in the market at this time, and plays HD as well. I paid $368 for the player and $999 for the projector. there is absolutely no need for Blue-Ray, especialy at $1,000 per unit. I suppose there might be some real die-hards out there that hate to admit they were wrong, or just love Sony and Playstation. Bottom line, I went HD and it it is great. This war is over.
Stephen Breden on Dec 12th, 2006 at 8:25 PM:
I have not had this much fun in ages... This ongoing commentary is a classic, replete with the irrelevant focus on mis-spellings, name calling, and obvious loyalty driven rant in favor of one company or another.
As the not so proud possessor of seven beta format VCRs, and still an avid multimedia collector and hobbyist, I have to laugh at the emotion that some of you expend on this topic. I hope some of you don't learn the hard, expensive way like I did. Never buy technology based on emotion, advertising rant, or mis-placed loyalty to some mammoth company brand. Always consider long term viability of a format before making any change, and appreciate how reluctant the market is to ever hand over one format to another.
And I do commend the original author for having the courage to take a position stating that HD DVD (or is it HD-DVD?) has won. This is the first time I have seen anyone willing to really take a position, from someone clearly qualified and knowledgeable enough to be worth considering.
Last time I checked, none of us really has the ability to read the future. But of this I am certain: it makes absolutely no sense to rant emotionally about these technology decisions, or adopt loyalty stances for or against a large, anonymous multi-national company that cares about one thing only, its bottom line. The only thing that matters is a cold, unemotional decision based on reality and not wishful thinking.
Technology formats change when one or both of two things happen: the new format is a LOT better, or a LOT cheaper, or both. The DVD is a clear example of this phenomenon. It started out expensive, but was obviously superior to even the average person over a VHS tape. Costs eventually drove the price below that of a VHS unit, but it didn't happen for several years. The Laser Disc is a clear example of a format that failed both of these rules, and as a result became a niche format. A Laser Disc player was more expensive than a VCR, and the picture was a little bit better than a tape. The HD disc formats fail the first rule, in my opinion; they are not really a LOT better than the conventional DVD. And they miserably fail on the second rule, especially the Blu Ray format. I cannot imagine a Blu Ray unit ever selling for $50 considering its built in cost disadvantage, but I can see that happening with the HD-DVD units; they have very similar basic technology to a conventional DVD player.
My prediction, neither format will ever replace the conventional DVD, before downloads and another latest and greatest storable format (disc or otherwise) comes along. What is to keep the developers from pushing 2160 line progressive line HD as "substantially better" than the existing 1080 formats? Or look at the obvious crap related to promoting "uncompressed" digital seven and eight channel sound formats as being dramatically better than 5.1 Dolby or DTS surround sound? Give me a break.... Look at the popularity of so-called inferior, compressed MP3 files as an example of how important this issue is to many music aficionados.
Myself, I am going to end this rant and go over and look for the best deal I can find on an HD-DVD player or XBox 360 with adapter. That will keep my son and I both happy this Christmas. And if it becomes a dead format in a few years, at least I do so understanding that upfront. I certainly won't be replacing my existing DVD collection in the process. And for those of you who want to argue and rant and rave against these conclusions, I wish you all a Merry Christmas and wish Peace to you all.
Dean Holmes on Dec 13th, 2006 at 5:45 AM:
Format wars, showing my age but I was around for the VHS,Beta and even the Grundig 2000 tape wars. But back then I don't think the general public was as tech savvy as there are now.
We have all been educated to some degree by the HD commercials and deferent people have different views, I know some that are wowed by DVD 480p, EDTV, 720p.
Then the die hards that need to see 1080 and will invest, if you have invested in a good HD BOX and I'm not talking about sub $2k box from BJ, then the HD Disk is not much of a leap.
My first Panasonic DVD 480i was $1100, you could find a few movies in tweeters but you would have to buy manly on line between $35-$50. Cutting Edge is costly.
I have a Sony R70XBR2 in my main living space, with a Sony BD1 blu-ray, PS3, Xbox-360 with HD-DVD even a Wii. The BD1 puts out the best picture, but I expect that for a
$1000 unit, but the Xbox hd-dvd is so close. Most friends can not tell the difference.
Its way to early in the game to call the shots, once both markets have a sub $200 machine(not add on, but set top boxes) then the format war will heat up. I think HD-DVD as a head start
and will have a sub $200 before Blu-Ray, but unlike VHS vs Beta, the public understand more, again there will be those that care and pay a little more for what you get and those that just
see it as I need a new dvd player I might as well get HD-DVD. More HD TV sales need to take place first. I'm on my fourth since 1999, but then I'm a die hard tech fan
Jackbefast on Dec 13th, 2006 at 10:50 AM:
Shaddup all you stoopid! Blueray is for suxxors!!
Konrad on Dec 13th, 2006 at 11:09 AM:
I don't know why does everyone posting their comments on this site is assigning the blu-ray technology solely to Sony. Also, as sony invention. Blu-ray was jointly developed by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), a group of the world's leading consumer electronics, personal computer and media manufacturers (including Apple, Dell, Hitachi, HP, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson).
I guess it is because of the release of PS3...
I agree that the year 2006 belonged to HD DVD format. (Really it belonged to DVD but that's not the point) I think this was mainly because of HD DVD being rolled out earlier to the market.
On the other hand I also believe that 2007 will belong to Blu-ray format as all af the above BDA companies will be introducing the stand-alone Blu-ray disc players so we'll see a huge selection of players on the shelves that will overwhelm one or two different kinds of HD DVD players.
Also taking into account that 7 out of 8 major movie studios declared support to Blu-ray with 5 of them declaring exclusivity to Blue-ray... I think that's a clear advantage to this HD media.
Of course non of us knows who will win the HD war... right now HD DVD has won the battle and not the war. And lets not compare SONY's BETA fiasco to the current situation... back then SONY was all by themselves with their system... currently it is a battle of Toshiba vs all af the major players from BDA (mentioned above)... so I would lean towards comparing the standalone Toshiba with it's HD DVD to the standalone Sony with it's beta system years ago...
Why also saying that Blu-ray player costs 1000 dollars ?!?!?! - it actualy costs 499 being the PS3 20GB... ;o)
Please do not point out my spelling mistakes or gramma errors - english is not my first language... want to argue my points ? leave the laguage subject behind...
Brett on Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:53 PM:
I really wish the companies could have agreed in the begining. But they didn't. Being an XBox 360 owner I figured I'd chance it and buy the add on. With a coupon I got the thing for $190 after tax. The reason I was willing to throw that money into it (it's not really that much money).
Besides the the obvious previous failures of Sony that have been mentioned above. The amount of studio support for Blu Ray had me concerned. Then I thought back to that wonderfull DVD format known as DIVX. Yes you remember. Where the disc cost $5 but you had to pay every time you watched the movie. Plus you had to be online so the companies could study your viewing habbits. Scary stuff. Who here remembers the two main supporters of that format? Well I do. It was Disney and 20th Century Fox. Not sure about Fox but Disney for obvious reasons. It was a sure bet they would make a killing. With kids wanting to watch movies over and over and over again. Now here they are. Standing strong behind Blu Ray. That simply scares me. Plus, does Disney really have the following they once had? Asside from Pixar they are a lost cause. Yes Miramax has a few good movies. Plus Disney puts out the occasional good live action film. But I don't think they will be the deciding factor. I think Fox will have more pull.
The real tough part is the fact that whatever studios support whatever format really doesnt matter. Because if it's not available in HD, I'm just gonna buy the DVD. I'm sure the same goes for Blu Ray users. So will any trully win? And if Blu Ray wins, like Stephen said above, I will just get a combo player.
For now I really like the picture quality of the HD DVD's. If you like your Blu Ray than I'm glad. The picture quality really is the same. I think it's gonna come down to cost. Your average Disney family wont be able to afford a Blu Ray player for a long time. While a more reasonable HD player seams practical. It just doesnt have the kid draw though.
I predict HD wins the home. Blu Ray (like Sony's Beta and Mini Disc) will win the media, aka news and TV.
Brett on Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:53 PM:
As mentioned above. Sony has time and time again failed. I am not a Sony hater nor a fanboy. But I do own a 360 and decided to fork over $190 (with coupon) for the add on. The fact that it came with a free copy of King Kong (a $30 value) really helped. I think this move by Microsoft will really help HDDVD.
One thing that sways me in no way is the fact that Disney and Fox are big supporters of Blu-Ray. Who here remembers DIVX. The pay as you watch DVD format. Well the two main supporters were Disney and Fox. They said they would never go the way of DVD. Well, almost ten years later we all know how that went. Disney is not the company they used to be. They don't have the fan base they had several years ago. I guess that's what comes from years of crap. With the exception of Pixar and Miramax they're a lost cause. Plus, the average Disney family can't afford Blu-Ray. HD is more practical. I can see a family purchasing a lower cost product with the same quality and simply buying the regular DVD format for their Disney needs. Fox on the other hand is a different story.
But the one thing that would trully make Fox a competator is Star Wars. Here's a few things about that. I think Star Wars fans, including myself, are tired of Lucas re-releasing these movies over and over again with and extra trailor on the disc. Plus, it took Lucas almost eight years to release the originals on DVD. He'll probably just wait till the format wars are over before releasing them again.
Now the backers of HD may not seem as glamerous but that's only if you don't really think about it. Universal and New Line Cinema. With Universal holding titles like Jurasik Park and Back To The Future, they could make it a decent competition. As for New Line, well....
I have four words for you. Lord Of The Rings. I trully believe that these films could have more pull than Star Wars. (I can't believe I just wrote that, I am a huge Star Wars fanboy) So unless New Line changes teams, this battle will go on forever.
What it really comes down to is this. Consumers want the best technology, at the best price. Blu-Ray and HD are pretty much the same thing when it comes to quality. With the exception of putting all the Lord Of The Rings films on one disc, there is no need for all the room on a Blu-Ray disc. How many people here actually watch the special features on a DVD? I think HD will win in the homes do to it's low cost. Blu-Ray, like Beta, will most likely end up in the television studios for it's high storage space.
None the less, I'm happy with my $200 add on for my 360. Not only do the movies look gorgeous. But it will save the life of my main 360 motor. Plus, when the dust settles, if Blu-Ray wins, I'll just buy a combo player at a much more reasonable price.
Brett on Dec 13th, 2006 at 12:54 PM:
Sorry about the double post guys. I thought the one I did last night got lost since my computer was running slow.
The average Consumer! on Dec 13th, 2006 at 4:48 PM:
Wow I can't believe that I'm going to contribute to this ridiculus debate! First of all those of you who are going to check my spelling, have fun I'm an awfull speller so please save your time and don't post responses of how stupid I am because I can't spell. I honestly believe that if you decide to read my post it will end all this debate.
That being said let's get right to it. I love this high tech stuff and love to buy new technology. I enjoy DVDS, playing games and in general electronic entertainment. This so called battle is so simple and is so easy to see the winner it's crazy. All you have to do is go with what general average americans always do. America is price driven and love quality for there hard earned dollar. By pure specs yes blue ray might have higher storage capacity and might have some other advantages but it just doesn't matter. Side by side they look very similar. I would say that some HD-dvds look better than blue ray and vice versa. America doesn't care if one holds twice as much information, all they care about is if it can hold there favorite movie on it. They don't give a rats ass of how many layers it has, who counts the layers? Does it hold the movie they want to see? Do they care about if the laser is blue or red? Do they care about how the system works? Trust me they also don't care about out dated coding or the type of systems it uses to produce the picture. All they care about is the end result which is how does the movie look on there T.V. The Answer is they both Look Fantastic! So price will always win when the end result is the same. If you don't believe me then you obviously haven't been to WalMart lately. Millions of people flock to WalMart Hourly to buy things for a little bit cheaper. People buy non name brand stuff all the time to save a few dollars because they do the exact same thing. So all you Tech Geeks out there who love to debate this stuff don't bother the war isn't up to you. American always will choose the cheaper thing that provides the exact same result! If blue ray wants to compete they have to drop the price, end of story. Have a good Holiday everyone and enjoy your digital media whatever it might be.
Tim on Dec 14th, 2006 at 5:33 AM:
This is to the manufactures and developers of HD-DVD. When can I see a consumer based HD-DVD Recorder on the market?
tim on Dec 14th, 2006 at 5:33 AM:
Are any of the HD-DVD manufactures going to market a consumer based HD-DVD Recorder in the US within the next 4 months?
Leo on Dec 14th, 2006 at 9:16 AM:
Hate to sound biased here towards one company, since its too early to call, but from all the reports I've read so far on the internet, its clear the HD DVD is ahead, and is likely to gain ground, not lose it.
To put it in basic terms, it just seems like Sony, PS3, Blu-ray, put all their eggs in one basket. If the Ps3 fails, sony fails. If the Blu-ray fails, the PS3 fails.
HD DVD is not crucial the Xbox 360's survival, because many customers are gamers, who dont care about movie watching. Xbox 360's success is not crucial to MS's success (they actually lost money on the first xbox).
That adaptability will push HD DVD past Blu-Ray. Unless 3rd party companies release Blu-rays at a lower price point, there will be no way to recover if it fails.
HD DVD is an optional format that is cheaper, and more practical for the common movie watcher.
The ability to attach the HD DVD player to a USB port on your computer is icing on the cake.
It is true that more studios are backing Blu-ray (if they weren't, this war would already be over) but it remains to be seen how loyal to Sony they will be.
Mark on Dec 14th, 2006 at 11:31 AM:
I also agree that it is far to early to declare a winner. But, HD-DVD is in the lead and appears to be increasing that lead.
I personally hope HD-DVD comes out on top because I have the HD-DVD addon for my 360. I'm not a Sony or Microsoft fanboy by any means. But, I give Microsoft the thumbs up in giving the 360 owners an option on purchasing a HD-DVD addon as opposed to having no choice (Sony).
The PS3 does not need a Blu-Ray drive as they claim for gaming. It is simply a ploy for Sony to try and take over the movie market.
My personal opinion is that the only advantage Blu-Ray has over HD-DVD is the increased disc space. Which to me is only important for backing up files..etc. When I purchase a movie, it is for the movie itself. All the extras are nice but are usually a "one time watch" if that.
HD-DVD is much more appealing to Joe the consumer because of the price. I would never spend $1000 or even $500 for any HD player at a point when "the war" is under way. A $150 HD-DVD addon for the 360 (free King Kong and Remote control) was just to good to pass up. Then if HD-DVD fails, I won't feel like jumping in front of a bus.
wacky tabacky on Dec 16th, 2006 at 12:27 PM:
Ok,you all seem to know a lot more than I do about blu ray and HD-DVD so excuse my ignorance on this topic.Why couldn't both survive?Why does there have to be one winner?I'm sure there's an obvious answer I'm not aware of but the world of business and politics is not my strength.If I remember correctly I think some companies are supporting both,no?Why couldn't Disney just put out a Disney movie in both formats?Too expensive or would there be legal problems with that?Thanks to everyone for this discussion.It's an interesting topic.
Justin on Dec 17th, 2006 at 9:11 AM:
Two more things I though about :
- I saw Gamestop & EBGames are both now selling BluRay discs, but not HD-DVD. I really don't think this will win the war for them, but a few extra sales never hurt.
- Alot of people go on about the extra space on the BluRay not really being a big deal. But what if they could put an entire season of a show, in standard def, on one or two discs? That would be pretty cool I think. Do you think it would be less expensive to make 1 or 2 disc BluRay sets or 5-6 disc standard DVD sets?
Just a couple things I thought of, and was wondering if you folks had any opinions or thoughts on.
mc-fine on Dec 17th, 2006 at 12:29 PM:
I just bought my 46" Sony HDTV after holding out for 2 years due to insufficient HD programming. I want my DVDs to have HD quality after building a decent sized collection.
My two options are HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. One player is $400 and the other is $1000. The cheaper version apparently can upconvert my current DVD library and make them look noticeably better.
People talking about naming conventions have it backwards. HD-DVD is much more consumer friendly than Blu-Ray. There is so much advertising for HDTVs, DirectTV/Cable HD channels, major networks proclaiming shows broadcast in HD. The natural progression is HD-DVD. It's self explanatory unlike Blu-Ray.
The average consumer will naturally drift towards HD-DVD based on the name alone. Then you have a player that is half the cost of the Blu-Ray players with no real difference in quality. HD-DVD just offers far more value. With the inclusion of disks that have the movie in HD as well as SD format the backwards compatibility makes it an easier switch.
The average consumer is going to go with HD-DVD. The only problem is if the differnet studios decide to go exclusively with different formats. That would be bad for everyone.
Value sells not technology.
Inglewood on Dec 17th, 2006 at 4:20 PM:
Fisrt of all someone was saying that sony products were crap, but sony makes some of the best tv's on the market always have. The bluray iw way better than HD-DVD, i think they both shuold scrap them and make way for HVD holographic media witch can hold 1 terabyte of info. that will blow them away. I read that you can put 300 to 400 dvd's on one disc and it can support ultra def when thats released.
Jon on Dec 19th, 2006 at 3:22 AM:
Something you might want to do to get an unbiased opinion, go to a high end electronics store like Magnolia Home Theater, they sale both Blu-ray & HD DVD players. I recently purchase a 50" Pioneer Plasma from them that will handle 1080p. I have a $10K system in my house that I bought almost exclusively based on reviews from CNET and advice from Magnolia Home Theater. Most products I order from the net because of availability issues or price, (I love to get the best, just not at retail) with some great savings. I bought the big important stuff you can't take a chance with from Magnolia.
Naturally, the next addition to my system would be, HD DVD or Blu-ray (I would buy a PS3 tonight if I could find one at a close to retail price. I have the XBOX 360 (bought last year on Dec. 25th from a holdout XBOX scalper for exactly what they paid for it), but didn't want to purchase the HD DVD add on (no HDMI). I spoke to a few knowledgeable sales people at Magnolia Home Theater (one who had a PS3 for sale on the side $1000+) and a debate ensued. According to them, the HD DVD player is the one to buy. This is coming from a retail outlet were I might have bought the $1500 Pioneer Elite Blu-ray player to go with the Plasma. On the top of my Xmas list was the Toshiba HD-A2 (for sale at Best Buy, outside of Magnolia, but not in stock). I order one that night from etronics.com along with a Panamax max5300-ex. I was charged for both but only received the Panamax max5300-ex; guess why, out of stock. I when by the Best Buy/Magnolia yesterday and to my surprise they had in every Blu-ray you could ever want and one Toshiba HD-A2 (Yes, I bought it).
I don't represent the American consumer. If you look at any consumer trending info, they suggest that the consumer is stressed; most Americans are, for the first time in US history, out spending what they earn. The average consumer/household is borrowing to pay their fixed costs. At a time when wages are declining on average and people are working more hours or a second job to compensate. At a time when all of those adjustable rate mortgage payments are growing exponentially.
My point here is not that the HD DVD is better or even going to win the war or who is backing one or the other. I can afford a Blu-ray player if I wanted, (I would still by a PS3 tonight if I could and still sleep). The average consumer will not or cannot. The margins for any of these companies are not as big as they may seem. I they can't make money in the short-term in today's busyness climate, it will not be long before they jump ship like HP. Don't forget, if it wasn't for Microsoft's $$ bailing out a bankrupt Macintosh, (Yes I had one of the originals) you wouldn't be downloading music onto your ipod right now.
I now understand what the Magnolia staff was doing by their suggestion. If they want to keep there customer base happy, don't suggest a $1500 Blu-ray that doesn't have the bugs worked out just yet
Dan on Dec 19th, 2006 at 10:36 AM:
I owned both PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 with HD-DVD addon, both movie formats had the same quality in video/audio but HD-DVD had more feature and load faster than Blu-ray, I'm buying PS3 to play games not movies, is a bad idea when you want to play movies on you gaming console especially with built in drive, unlike Xbox 360 gave you an option to add on if you wanna go for Hi-Def movies or not.
Awktane on Dec 19th, 2006 at 11:50 AM:
It's hilarious to see this go back and forth. Wait until summer of next year at the very least before proclaiming a winner. A war is never won in such a short time. At this point HD-DVD is winning. In the beginning the Natzis were winning too... People are saying the Blu-Ray discs have bugs and are overpriced. Blu-Ray is brand new and was pushed out too early in order to compete. This may very well be its downfall. HD is the big "fool the consumer" acronym right now. Sony had a hard time getting their PS3s out but if you saw the riots to get those few PS3s it might give us an indication of how quickly they are going to sell when they are ready. The market is attributing the PS3 with better technology and higher definition. This flows over to the Blu-Ray a little bit. Now whether or not Sony does anything with it we will see. Before I get proclaimed as a Sony fanboy, I'm going to point out that the supporter with the most weight behind HD-DVD at this point is Microsoft. I think Microsoft is disgusting. Microsoft is known for their bugs, security risks, anti-trust problems, and well other problems in general. I would also like to point out that the computer most of you are using... is still probably Microsoft. Nobody out there has come up with something which the average Joe feels comfortable with (and with as much support). In this case... Sony has. The DRM on the HD-DVD has been broken already and it is possible to copy them today. The only known way to convert Blu-Ray into anything else is through the PS3. I think this is the biggest reason why many movie production companies are quite comfortable sitting on the Blu-Ray side. SoOoo after all of that which side do I stand on? None. I own an XBOX 360... I will own a PS3. I will not buy movies for either until the market settles down. I tend to watch movies once every 6 months if ever again. I'll see it in theatres simply because spending $20 to see the movie on a massive screen over paying $20-30 on a disk that might be trash in a year. "Oh noes! Go outside? Where all of the people are just to see a movie? OH NOES!"
Joey on Dec 19th, 2006 at 1:25 PM:
Well this is a great debate! Let me remind you that alot of you are getting very mad arguing over high definition media disc formats and typographical errors! This isn't politics! No need to get so upset! I personally own both players. Heres my take. My TV does 1080p...let me start by saying there is VERY VERY VERY Little difference in picture clarity of 1080i and 1080p (so dont freak out trying to upgrade your 1080i hdtv to 1080p, its not worth it!) I myself like hd-dvd format. I think the picture is more clear, but thats just me. Plus i'm a guy, and hd-dvd has more manly titles right now (right now that is). My PS3 blu ray player is very clear too! It is very nice! The picture was very clear also. I think that hd-dvd will last for movies because, well, Microsoft controls everything! (even the weather! lol ) and they have soooo much money. Plus more of their products last. I know sony hasnt created many good devices or media formats lately, thats another drawback; but I should remind you that in 1979 sony made a little thing called a compact disc...It took a lonnnnnggg time but they caught on! Recent Sony inventions have flopped though...UMD is a big one, and minidisk. I just trust microsoft more than sony...and they are a company based in the good-ol-U.S. of A (sorry my patriotic side kicking in lol) Blu-Ray will at least last for mass media storage. Toshiba has already spin tested a Blu-Ray disc to 200gig! Who knows it very well could last for movies too! I think consumers will be happy with either! It just depends on if you worship Bill (gates that is lol)
Techie on Dec 19th, 2006 at 1:45 PM:
It will be a cool idea to have formats, A Blu-Ray player as well as HD-DVD player. The only problem with that is cost associated with it. If HD-DVD player was cheap but if it did not have enough movies released on it, I would not like to buy. Also looking at HD-DVD format, it may not be possible to have 2 or 3 high definition movies on one disk where as in case of Blu-ray, it looks like a good possibility. This may be one of the several reasons Studios rallying behind Blu-ray format.
Less expensive products can sell larger volumes even if they offer little inferior quality to superior product, lot of times consumers consider price tag very seriously especially in case of electronics. This may work in advantage of HD-DVD player, whereas for lot of us, if the electronics product is from Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic or even Samsung (All make Blu-Ray players), we consider it is the best where as in case of Toshiba (HD-DVD), one always tends to compare before committing.
Decide it for yourself, paying little extra in short run and saving more on long run (Blu-Ray) vs. buying a cheap player for now and paying more ($ cost per GB of HD-DVD disk) in long run (HD-DVD). I am sure people are on both sides.
Daniel on Dec 20th, 2006 at 6:43 AM:
One thing you have to look at what format is selling . At our local Best buy they have not sold a hd DVD player in 8 weeks. There is a Sony and Samsung on display and there is just a cardboard cutout of the hd DVD player. Another is the cost and quality all bluerays players are 1080p most (all) Toshibas are 1080i witch is ½ the resolution of 1080p not 6 times the resolution of DVD only 3 times because most DVD players are progressive yes they cost less but you get a lesser product and picture. Why not just get a DVD player at 480p 1080i is terrible if it was in progressive scan it would be 540p that's less resolution than a progressive scan pal DVD player at 576p. Cost the 1080p Toshiba is well not out yet and will be well over a thousand and you can get a ps3 for $500 or a Samsung just under $700, Also Sony $ 1000 and you can get a true reference player with the pioneer elite $1500. Why are there over 8 large manufactures making blueray players Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, Sharp, Mitsubishi, and LG. Why are they all making a blueray payers if the hd-dvd format is going to win and only xbox and Toshiba are on the hd-dvd side making players. Another thing to look at is they are going to sell over 35 million ps3 that's 35 million more buleray players out there for Sony. The xbox 360 will sell about 33 million but their player is a $200 add-ons. This is a bad idea like all the Sega system add-ons don't work. How many do you think they are actually going to sell and with no hdmi. It get pricey with all the nickel and dime add-ons the 360 has. One thing to look at is quality. Hd-dvd is a 30gig disc vs. a 50gig disk if you have the same movie on both formats but one uses 50gig and the other only 30gig that's a 20 gig deferent's that's a 2/3 more data so that means a better picture and sound .or you might have to have 2 hd-dvd disc to equal the quality of 1 blueray The less you have to compress the data on the disk and can keep it in the Raw format the better picture and sound you will get. Yes the format war is over Blueray will win.
Ps I fell bad for the people that think a 1080i HD-DVD is true hd and yes it is only 3 times the resolution of a progressive scan DVD not much better unlike the 1080p blueray that you can see the Deferent's and is 6 times better than a dvd and 3 time that of a hd-dvd player.
Rob on Dec 20th, 2006 at 9:15 AM:
So lets all argue about spell checking and grammar! This coming from a bunch of people using IM and text messaging to butcher the English language!
HD-DVD will win because its afordable! Most Americans can't afford Sony's offerings because they like to over price everything they manufacture. How are you supposed to pay for Blu-ray whens the player is double the price of HD-DVD? Especially if your working two jobs to put food on the table for your family. HD-DVD is cheaper and will win because most Americans can't afford over priced crap from Sony! Sure there are other manufacturers producing Blu-Ray but when they see their sales slump they will produce HD-DVD just like they did during the DVD-RAM, DVD+R -R wars a few years ago!
Mike on Dec 20th, 2006 at 9:38 AM:
To All (Daniel)
The only difference in 1080i and 1080p is frame rate, they both have the same resoultion of 1920 x 1080 , you do the math same pixels. So in a 1080p picture the higher the frame rate of the movie the smoother the 1080p would be. Me personally I'm tired of all these bloated code, and bloated programs I remember a day when you could fit a game or OS, on a couple of floppies and now people are arguing that one movie format is better than another because the Discs are bigger, the thing that all you guys are forgetting is that we will be trying to copy the movies as soon as we can And me personally I would much rather try to compress 30 gigs then 50 gigs, in terms of quality I beleive that they would be the same to the human eye. The bigges thing is that most TV have a have resoultion of 1024 x 768, or 1376 x 768 so what does that mean, your TV is more than likely a 720p, it may be able to display a 1080i signal but unless you have a true 1080p it aint gonna matter anyway. And I don't know about you guys but I'm not going to be replacing my $1000+ HDTV anytime soon. The fact is that the bule ray is a bigger disc we know that, but In terms of the format that has done their homework I think that HD-DVD will win, and I can wait to get a XBOX 360 to go with my xbox 180 (hacked xbox) to go with my ultimate home theater experience.
Francisco Arguelles on Dec 20th, 2006 at 4:07 PM:
Basically, I thing, all gays are in a big error, no one will be win... I mean, new equipment with capacity to read both will appear... the problem is not hardware, the problem is software... Or.. remember CD +R o CD -R? both formats works fine...REMEMBER ME.... sorry for my english... I live in Mexico City
Daniel(mike) on Dec 21st, 2006 at 6:12 AM:
To All (MIKE)
The only difference in 1080i and 1080p is frame rate, they both have the same resolution of 1920 x 1080 , you do the math same pixels. Interlace will never have a single frame of 1080 only 540 do the math that's 1/2 the resolution per frame rate. You will never have a full frame playing interlace of 1080. And the frame rate of interlaces is 30 frames-per-second not 60 like progressive that's double the frames of interlace. and all of the progressive frames are all are in 1080 not 540 per frame. another interlace was made for analog video not digital
Rick on Dec 21st, 2006 at 6:57 AM:
Interesting thread. I'm an early adopter. I bought the first Betamax stand-alone recorder when it hit the market in 1976. Two years later I bought a laserdisc player when they first came out and I've had a 64" HDTV for 5 years.
It's a little disingenuous to point to Sony failures. They failed not because they were bad but because Sony put expensive licensing requirements on them. Successes? How about CD and DVD, whose patents Sony and Philips share. Not a bad source of income, and pretty widely adopted, no?
I really think that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are interim standards for a couple of years until holographic disks reach the market as commodities. Having said that, I'll admit I have a Blu-Ray player. It happens to be embedded in a PS3, but that's ok. Pending final approval of HDMI 1.3 next year, it's not worth buying very high-end equipment at this time.
The mpeg-2 codec Sony is using is excellent - I've seen thuput peaks of > 35 mpbs. I suspect that even higher data rates and additional add-ons will be available when more efficient video codecs such as H-254 are used. The cell processor should be able to handle them with ease.
I can't knock HD-DVD. It has a great picture, too, although not all the A/V bells&whistles are available on output yet (or on Blu-Ray players, either). But the player I saw was slow to load, locked occasionally, and didn't seem very responsible to the remote.
What I'm really waiting for is a high-end CD/DivX/H.264, SACD, DVD-Audio, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, and DVD with GOOD upscaling player. That's not too much to ask, is it? :)
C
To All (DANIEL) on Dec 21st, 2006 at 6:57 AM:
Your are correct in your concept except their are 540 lines per field, there are two fields in a frame, then the vertical blanking signal then a new fram starts, that is why I correctly said that the only difference is frame rate 1080i is 30fps where as 1080p is 60fps, I'm not trying to get in a peeing constast with you, I just wanted to put some information out there, if you didn't know But I see that you do have some knowledge in the subject, but let me ask you this do you think that the human eye can detect the difference between 30 and 60 fps, and food for thought aren't movies made with 24 fps anyway. I'm not arguing with you guys Blu ray is a superior technology. What you people have to understand, both technologies use the same wavelength of light, the difference is the discs for blu ray are more exspensive to make due the the .1 mm layer fabercation process. Blu Ray uses a laser with better coherency which results in greater density. Me personally I would rather just keep buying hard drives and making them removable, because they are faster and cheaper as hard drives get bigger. Personally I just like arguing intellegently. I hope this argument helps anyone. Like I said previously I can't wait to get my xbox 360 with HD DVD adapter.
Daniel(mike) on Dec 21st, 2006 at 11:07 AM:
you are correct the only way you will see a deferent's is when you have large picture like a front projector not a 50in TV.
Deval on Dec 21st, 2006 at 1:53 PM:
I just purchased the TOSHIBA HD-A2 HD-DVD player and I saw KingKong HD and I was amazed at the clarity and sound. I bought HD DVD player because of the price. I would want to see HD DVD win just because now I have a player and I would not want to spend 800 dollars on a disc player. Its just not practical. I had a hard time justifying the 300 dollar HD-A2 (got it at datavision, www.datavis.com). Anything more is not for me as a middle class man. I don't thrive for the best. I work with what I have. And its not that blu ray is superior. Then why spend extra money to get something of same quality? I can buy 2 HD-DVD players for the price of one Blu-Ray player. Simple math --> not practical to buy blu-ray players as of now.
James on Dec 24th, 2006 at 4:48 PM:
Sony has done more things to limit consumer options than any most other company (including Microsoft). If you want the most DRM restriction then buy Blu-ray:
Blu-ray Disc has an experimental digital rights management (DRM) feature called BD+ which allows for dynamically changing keys for the cryptographic protections involved. Should the keys currently in use be "cracked" or leaked, manufacturers can update them and build them into all subsequent discs, preventing a single key discovery from permanently breaking the entire scheme. Blu-ray Disc also mandates a Mandatory Managed Copy system, which allows users to copy content a limited number of times, but requiring registration with the content provider to acquire the keys needed; this feature was originally requested by HP[12] . The lack of a dynamic encryption model is what has made DeCSS a disaster from the industry's perspective: once CSS was cracked, all DVDs from then on were open to unauthorized decryption. However this controversial technology, together with Self-Protecting Digital Content (SPDC), can allow players judged "bad" to be effectively disabled,[13] preventing their use by their purchaser or subsequent owners.[14] See Advanced Access Content System (AACS).
The Blu-ray Disc Association also agreed to add a form of digital watermarking technology to the discs. Under the name "ROM-Mark", this technology will be built into all ROM-producing devices, and requires a specially licensed piece of hardware to insert the ROM-mark into the media during replication. All Blu-ray Disc playback devices must check for the mark. Through licensing of the special hardware element, the BDA believes that it can eliminate the possibility of mass producing BD-ROMs without authorization.
In addition, Blu-ray Disc players must follow AACS guidelines pertaining to outputs over non-encrypted interfaces. This is set by a flag called the Image Constraint Token (ICT), which would restrict the output-resolution without HDCP to 960×540. The decision to set the flag to restrict output ("down-convert") is left up to the content provider. According to CED Magazine, Sony/MGM and Disney currently have no plans to down-convert, and Fox is opposed to it as well. Warner Pictures is a proponent of the ICT, and it is expected that Paramount will also implement it.[15] Other studios releasing Blu-ray Disc content have not yet commented on whether or not they will use down-conversion. None of the titles released as of Dec 2006 include the use of the ICT. AACS guidelines require that any title that implements the ICT must clearly state so on the packaging.
James on Dec 24th, 2006 at 4:48 PM:
Sony is worse than most other companies (including Microsoft) in ripping the consumer off. They always over-promise and under-deliver. If you love big-brother DRM than you should support Blu-ray:
Blu-ray Disc has an experimental digital rights management (DRM) feature called BD+ which allows for dynamically changing keys for the cryptographic protections involved. Should the keys currently in use be "cracked" or leaked, manufacturers can update them and build them into all subsequent discs, preventing a single key discovery from permanently breaking the entire scheme. Blu-ray Disc also mandates a Mandatory Managed Copy system, which allows users to copy content a limited number of times, but requiring registration with the content provider to acquire the keys needed; this feature was originally requested by HP[12] . The lack of a dynamic encryption model is what has made DeCSS a disaster from the industry's perspective: once CSS was cracked, all DVDs from then on were open to unauthorized decryption. However this controversial technology, together with Self-Protecting Digital Content (SPDC), can allow players judged "bad" to be effectively disabled,[13] preventing their use by their purchaser or subsequent owners.[14] See Advanced Access Content System (AACS).
The Blu-ray Disc Association also agreed to add a form of digital watermarking technology to the discs. Under the name "ROM-Mark", this technology will be built into all ROM-producing devices, and requires a specially licensed piece of hardware to insert the ROM-mark into the media during replication. All Blu-ray Disc playback devices must check for the mark. Through licensing of the special hardware element, the BDA believes that it can eliminate the possibility of mass producing BD-ROMs without authorization.
In addition, Blu-ray Disc players must follow AACS guidelines pertaining to outputs over non-encrypted interfaces. This is set by a flag called the Image Constraint Token (ICT), which would restrict the output-resolution without HDCP to 960×540. The decision to set the flag to restrict output ("down-convert") is left up to the content provider. According to CED Magazine, Sony/MGM and Disney currently have no plans to down-convert, and Fox is opposed to it as well. Warner Pictures is a proponent of the ICT, and it is expected that Paramount will also implement it.[15] Other studios releasing Blu-ray Disc content have not yet commented on whether or not they will use down-conversion. None of the titles released as of Dec 2006 include the use of the ICT. AACS guidelines require that any title that implements the ICT must clearly state so on the packaging.
james on Dec 24th, 2006 at 6:15 PM:
* How old is your HDTV? If you bought it prior to 2005, and there are over 3 million of you who did, the MPAA thinks you shouldn't be able to watch HD movies in high definition. They are insisting that your TV supports digital encryption via an HDMI port or an HDCP-compliant DVI port, which these earlier TV's lack. If you have to stoop so low as to hook up your shiny new player via, God forbid, analog (component), the industry thinks you're not worthy. There's a fun little surprise they built in to Blu-ray for people just like you, and it's called the Image Constaint Token. If it's enabled on a movie, and your connection does not support HDCP, then the movie is downsampled to 1/4 its native resolution, which is essentially the same as a standard DVD. While no movies have yet been released with the ICT enabled, know this: It will happen. It's just a matter of time.
* Thinking about buying a new Blu-ray drive for your computer? If you want to use it to watch movies, think again. You'll need to buy a lot more than just the drive. Remember, analog = BAD, digital encryption = GOOD. You'll need to open up that wallet of yours for a brand new HDCP-compliant video card, AND, an HDCP-compliant monitor. Notice the word compliant. That is very important. There are some products that just claim to be HDCP "compatible", but they will NOT work for viewing high definition movies.
* AACS means that Blu-ray will never be compatible with free software, affecting nearly everyone that wants to view these movies on their computer but isn't running Windows or Mac OS X. While this is a minority of computer users, they should not be ignored. Some might say history is doomed to repeat itself.
* Excited about Mandatory Managed Copy? Don't be. While it theoretically allows things such as making legal backups and streaming content from one part of your house to another, the studios have the option of charging you money to do that. Current HD players don't even support MMC. Your player also has to be connected to the internet. That's not inherently bad, but is certainly open for abuse. What if you don't have an available internet connection close to your home theater? What if you don't have broadband? The MPAA humbly requests that you cry them a river. It's hard to believe they even considered something like MMC, considering this. Choice quote: "Even if CDs do become damaged, replacements are readily available at affordable prices". Translation: please purchase another copy of content you have already paid for, thank you.
* "Hacking" your Blu-ray player, for example to remove the region coding, or playing a bootlegged disc, may lead your player to self destruct.
Nando on Dec 24th, 2006 at 6:19 PM:
people say tight DRM are a flaw to blu-ray. but look at the broader picture:
it is one of the main reasons blu-ray got most of its exclusive support. studios are not going to support a format were people is going to pirate easily their content.
Alex R. on Dec 27th, 2006 at 2:18 PM:
An interesting fact for HD-DVD supporters because of the name. The only reason people like the name more is because it's called HD which makes people think of high-definition when it really means high-density.
Pedro on Dec 28th, 2006 at 8:12 AM:
You truly have no idea what you're talking about. I truly wonder why they let an uninformed blog writer post something as dumb as this. This is just the begining and all you're imformation is just so outdated is not even funny The PS3 by now has sold 1,000,000 by now so let's just say that 25% of these units the users are watching movies that's 250,000 people using blu-ray. How many hd-dvd players are out there 100,000? And this is just the begining by summer the PS3 will have sold 6 to 7 millions units, how many do you think hd dvd will have sold.
PS An old fart like you should stick to eight track players and vhs. Stop posting such ignorant ********, it just make you look dumb.
Comments on Dec 28th, 2006 at 11:18 AM:
The HD DVD player is 0.1 milion in the world.
Blu-ray is 1.2 million only in PS3.
Victory of Blu-ray.
Comments on Dec 28th, 2006 at 11:25 AM:
MultiMedia Compact Disc"MMCD" is a little capacity, and disk where CD was enhanced. Neither the hardware
Mark on Dec 6th, 2006 at 12:32 PM:
HD-DVD is crap and so are the players!!! I would never flock to where all the idiots are...