Wal-Mart HD DVD: To Be or Not To Be?
April 27th, 2007 | by Rob Enderle
Post Your Comment...Comments
Arthur on Apr 27th, 2007 at 4:57 PM:
Do people not understand that the chinese market often refers to both Blu-ray and HD-DVD as "Blue HD-DVD". To prove that the debate is still up in the air, I provide this link: http://google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftw.news...
Note that in this particular translator it says, "...But Blue DVD can read quite as much as 50G over 12 movie discs..." and then two paragraphs down goes on to say, "Blue DVD traverse the most crucial invention by the Chinese, not only catching, anti-fouling, the cost of production is also low, even the traditional and DVD compatible, even listed first international sensation, the machine the famous American manufacturers ordering of two million units..." Unless HD-DVD suddenly got a 50Gb video format, then they are talking Blu-ray. I know a lot of people who constantly use the generic term HD DVD when talking about any hi def format. The problem is that every one assumes when talking about the Hi Def DVD formats that they spacificaly mean HD-DVD only, and that simply is not the case. Please stop saying it is HD DVD when they are talking about producing a HD formated DVD(either HD-DVD or Blu-ray)
Now some other stuff people are ignoring. How about the fact sony has cut the cost of Blu-ray laser diods from $150 to $8. according to many sources their blue laser diodes are now amung the cheepest on the market. If this is the case how is it that people think Blu-ray can't be produced for the same costs as HD-DVD? Sony it self Stated that they expected to have $299 Blu-ray players by the end of the year. Do more research before dismissing the possibility that these could be Blu-ray.
Note: even though this translator calls it, "Blue DVD" other translators refer to it as, "Blue light DVD" and the 50Gb capacity can only be one of the HD formats.
Interested Watcher on Apr 27th, 2007 at 5:32 PM:
Some folks also seem determined to overlook the fact that there are 3 other brands of very inexpensive Chinese HD DVD players definitely coming towards the end of this year besides this Walmart deal.
The Blu-ray Assoc - unlike Toshiba in 2005 - has never licenced China to produce their own BD players, in fact they have specifically and publicly stated they would not do this.....so even if Walmart wanted them just who would supply these unlicensed players (which would therefore surely be illegal for sale in all the major western markets anyways)?
HD DVD has now submitted the 51gb triple layer disc to the DVD Forum, I suspect it is comment about compatability with this development that is where any talk of '50gb' may have arisen.
My understanding is that red laser HD DVD is used in China, hence the distinction made in the original documents which referred to 'blue laser' and then (in plain English) 'HD DVD'.
The fact is that thanks to the unnecessarily high spec the Blu-ray side have saddled themselves with the BD drive is always going to be more expensive than the HD DVD equivalent.
It needs more parts and parts of a higher spec (because the pits they read are smaller.....which is how come BD can have 25gb per layer to HD DVD's 17gb).
BD needed the economies of scale to help combat this in-built additional expense....and they are exopensive, check out all the talk of the level of BD subsidy.
The last thing BD needed was a competitor taking market share and profits - especially one that cost comparitively speaking nothing as opposed to the hugely expensive initial cost of the BD investment (multi billions of $ US).
BD needed to knock HD DVD out of the market as fast as possible - hence all that ludicrous 'we've already won' and all the rest of the ridiculous PR spin since CES.
But it's too late.
HD DVD has survived and the Chinese deals show that HD DVD too will enjoy the economies of scale multi-million production is bringing and so lock BD permanently into higher prices when compared to it.
.....and we can see from the less than stellar PS3/BD retail movie disc attachment rates that if these very inexpensive HD DVD players do take off and HD DVD corners the a/v market it might not be much of a fight after-all.
BD may end up a PS3 proprietary brand, as UMD is to PSP.
No wonder LG & Samsung sensed the best course was to bet on both and abandon the 'BD exclusive' hardware manufacturer stance.
I fully expect they will not be the last this year and that we will also see some previously BD exclusive studio support go neutral in the coming 12 - 24mths.
RD on Apr 27th, 2007 at 6:09 PM:
toshiba unveiled their own 51gb disk as shown in this article: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Toshiba-Presents-th...
Wellinformed on Apr 27th, 2007 at 7:05 PM:
People seem to be forgetting about the 45GB TL disc HD DVD submitted a long time ago. What happened to that one? It was ratified, but it is not around. Plus, they are a lot more expensive to produce than 50GB Blu-ray discs.
Everyone also needs to recognize that this new 51 GB TL disc can't even be ratified 'til the end of the year. That means IF they even started to make sure the NEW HD DVD players can read them, it probably couldn't be produced 'til 6 months after that. Now, that would most likely mean everyone that bought a HD DVD player would need to buy another one just to play 51GB TL discs. That still doesn't increase the big bandwidth issue HD DVD has (30Mbps).
It just seems like HD DVD fans are too emotional wrapped up in this format war to see the dire straights HD DVD is in at this point due to poor planning and an inferior format.
Arthur on Apr 27th, 2007 at 9:08 PM:
Wow is miss information flying. A while back Funai anounced a Blu-ray player that would be out before the end of 07 that at the time was going to sell for $500 (at the time HD-DVD was ; however, As prices of parts have dropped, like the blue laser from $150 to $8, I'm sure their price will be lower when it finaly comes out.
Arthur on Apr 27th, 2007 at 9:10 PM:
er... "(at the time HD-DVD was" is random stuff that should be disregarded. weird... wasn't in the prieview.
Arthur on Apr 27th, 2007 at 9:14 PM:
The 51Gb disks have not yet been added to the HD-DVD spec, and probably will never be as if they are tripple layer and if they did they would be incompatable with current machines.
Arthur on Apr 27th, 2007 at 10:24 PM:
I just read a post else where that makes a great statement. The problem with this format war is it's called the High Definition DVD format war. Otherwise known as the HD DVD format war. As Blu-ray and HD-DVD are both formats in this war, there is often confusion between when some one is talking about the "Catagory HD DVD" and the "Format HD-DVD" In these Chinese web pages they are discussing the "Catgory" and not the "Format;" however, people are missinterpreting this and believe they are talking the format. There isn't any positive proof that this is either format, other than the mentioning of 50Gb of data.
Since Blu-ray currently in theory can handle up to 200Gb currently, and HD DVD currently in theory handle up to 150Gb I doubt the 50Gb post was about current theoretical maximums, but based off the actual current data limits that are built into each spec. It is possible they were talking about the tripple layer HD-DVD disks; however, there are two problems with that. First why wouldn't they point out it's 51Gb of data? All other mentions of the tripple layer brag about that extra 1Gb as it would give HD-DVD a small advantage. Secondly it isn't officialy part of the format yet, and as new hardware would be needed to read them, all older HD-DVD players would not function with new disks. Thus why would they mention something that no one has access to. Occam's razor should apply.
Ari on Apr 28th, 2007 at 1:38 PM:
Statement on fuhyuan.com:
"We are sorry to correct the statement that we have two million HD-DVD players order from Wal-Mart and manufactured by China Great Wall Group. The actuality is that we had not received yet. We are asked to provide the schedule to Wal-Mart and cost to determine the quantity even more than two million, if the cost is good enough and timing is correct. So the capacity is under consideration. Any qualified manufactured base group will be welcome. "
http://www.fuhyuan.com/ev/action/main.asp?news_id1...
So it does look like Wal-Mart IS IN FACT shopping for sub $200 players!! This does not bode well for Blu-Ray...
Bill on Apr 28th, 2007 at 11:41 PM:
With the price per component going down, don't be surprised when the sub-$200 blu-ray player hits the market. The only thing missing is the licensing agreement.
The market share potential has already driven companies to take losses to capture this market.
JHyde on Apr 29th, 2007 at 3:23 AM:
A lot of people would like to read the tea leaves on this one, we've only turned one corner in this race. But even if Walmart does find someone to produce a cheap HD DVD player, it doesn't necessarily spell doom for BR, it calls for them to adapt their strategy to keep their momentum.
We're already going into May, and as was pointed out by WM, can someone produce and deliver something before the holiday? With no QC issues? Coming from Taiwan... Maybe, maybe not.
Sony is scaling down the tech spec to make cheaper BR players, which they claim will ship in June, with a price drop to rival HD DVD by X-mas, and add the 1 yr. price cut for PS3 into the equation. Sammy said they'll also price cut. Whatever the cost, Sony's ramped up blue diode production.
Current financials: Sony's got cash and is making money, in spite of battery problems, etc. Toshiba's got problems with cash, they're losing money in other sectors and are going to have to lower expectations for at least another quarter.
BR owners mainly miss out only on titles from Universal and it's taken them a year to get some decent titles out of their library. The BR exclusive studios are making cash on BR's momentum. There's little reason for them to go neutral unless there's a clear shift in the market, and at the moment, Walmart's potential impact is merely on paper, leaving Sony with cash in its pockets and time to do something to bolster their standalone sales.
Oh yes, and Arthur, check your spelling mate: cheeper/cheaper, triple, tripple...
Hmmm, if WM has their X-mas wish, they'll be selling HD DVDs like Tribbles! ;-)
Barry on Apr 29th, 2007 at 11:13 AM:
Why is Sony keeping BR manufacturing out of China? Is it because they are worried about illegal copying going on?
Jason Howard on Apr 30th, 2007 at 11:18 AM:
I bet they are worried about people copying the technology and not licensing it.
It would make sense for them to get some people on board in China/Taiwan though.
Bryan on Apr 30th, 2007 at 2:35 PM:
What will happen when Blu-Ray can match HD-DVD dollar for dollar? What will the preferred format be then?
Theron on Apr 30th, 2007 at 3:09 PM:
The blue laser component went from $50 to $8, not $150 to $8.
The deciding factor in HD DVD's favor is a combination of things.
Producing the movies/discs: Blu-ray has about 50% yield, HD DVD has about 90% yield. That means 50% of blu-ray discs made are defective, vs. 10% for HD-DVD. This is not to say they are shipped defective as well, surely some kind of testing is performed. However that translates into additional cost, and increases the likelyhood a defective disc will get shipped.
The low cost player, say $199 and lower, is going to be a much better seller than $500+ players. Factor in Sony's greed, you can easily see why their top of the line (blu-ray) player is hundreds more than Toshiba's top of the line HD DVD player. Blu-ray is good for Sony, expensive for consumers. HD-DVD is just as good if not better for consumers, and cheaper all the way around.
Picture quality is identical.
HD-DVD uses VC-1 codec which is a much newer and more efficient codec than Mpeg2 is. The much tounted "size" advantage, or capacity of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD (30gb vs 45gb initially) means nothing in terms of quality of sound and picture. Using newer, more advanced audio (Dolby True-HD) codecs and video codecs (VC-1), Typical movies fit just fine on either format.
As soon as I get a newer receiver, I'm going with a Toshiba XA2. Not only is it a great HD DVD player, but one of the best upconverting players as well. I believe it is the cheapest upconverting player that uses that much respected Silicon Optix Reon VX video processing chip. (same component used in $2000 outboard video processors)
HD-DVD plays regular cd's. Blu-ray, nope.
It's such a big list, it will not be suprising to see Blu-ray become a sony pictures only format for the PS3 user base. Similiar to the PSP's proprietary format movie discs. Of course the portable player has protability on its' side.... nah, maybe Blu-ray will just die a slow, painful death.
LOL @ BD Fanboi's on May 1st, 2007 at 9:04 AM:
What some of the BD people are forgetting... Is the whole reason that Pioneer and Panasonic make players for only BD.
It is because Sony has promised them the ability to make low quantity, high profit players for years while the PS3 win's this HD battle for them.
If that doesn't happen, IF Sony comes to the market with a $300 player. What'[s to keep the other manufacturer's like Panny and Pioneer happy? If they have to sell high quantity/low profit players, why wouldn't they start making HD-DVD players?
Also, if it comes down to a price war. No one on the BD side will be able to compete with the prices the Chinese and Wal-Mart have. NO ONE.
It will come down to a "how low can you go" war. IF Sony makes a $200 player, Toshiba will match or beat it and the Chinese/Wal-Mart players will severely undercut it. BD will not have the capability to match HD-DVD's prices. Besides the fact it goes against everything BDA had been planning for their format to begin with.
Talkstr8t on May 1st, 2007 at 3:39 PM:
Theron, you're spewing misinformation like a rabid dog.
>Blu-ray has about 50% yield, HD DVD has about 90% yield.
Blu-ray's yield is above 80% for SL and reportedly above 60% for DL, and improving rapidly. Further, if yield were such an issue why would 7 of 8 studios support Blu-ray while only 3 of 8 support HD DVD?
>Factor in Sony's greed, you can easily see why their top of the line (blu-ray) player is hundreds more than Toshiba's top of the line HD DVD player.
Sony has two players - a PS3 for $599 and the BDP-S1 for $999 (about to be replaced by a follow-on unit for $599). Toshiba reduced their MSRP from $999 to $799. Sony's reducing theirs from $999 to $599. How is $599 hundreds more than $799?
>The much tounted "size" advantage, or capacity of Blu-ray vs HD-DVD (30gb vs 45gb initially) means nothing in terms of quality of sound and picture. Using newer, more advanced audio (Dolby True-HD) codecs and video codecs (VC-1), Typical movies fit just fine on either format.
A) You're ignoring bandwidth. Blu-ray has over 50% more bandwidth available from the disc, which means much higher bitrates can be used to provide better picture, audio, interactivity, more languages, etc. Further, movies like King Kong on HD DVD had little interactivity and no lossless sound because they were OUT OF SPACE. 30GB is not enough today, and surely won't be enough a few years from now. Pirates of the Caribbean will be released on a BD50 plus a BD25, so even 50GB isn't necessarily enough, but it's still 2/3 higher than 30GB.
>As soon as I get a newer receiver, I'm going with a Toshiba XA2. Not only is it a great HD DVD player, but one of the best upconverting players as well. I believe it is the cheapest upconverting player that uses that much respected Silicon Optix Reon VX video processing chip. (same component used in $2000 outboard video processors)
Try the Samsung PD-P1200 - save chipset, same or cheaper cost.
>HD-DVD plays regular cd's. Blu-ray, nope.
The PS3, Panasonic, both Samsungs, and Philips Blu-ray players all support CD's. The LG combo player doesn't play CD's, so your statement is doubly-wrong - most BD players do support CD, and at least on HD DVD player doesn't.
>It's such a big list, it will not be suprising to see Blu-ray become a sony pictures only format for the PS3 user base.
The list of Blu-ray supporting companies is far, far longer than HD DVD. Ignoring the neutral players, how can you compare Sony, Panasonic, Philips, Pioneer, Dell, Disney, Fox, Sun, MGM, and Lions Gate to Toshiba, Universal, and Microsoft?
Enderle just digs a deeper hole here ignoring WalMart's denial and pinning his weak premise on a tortured statement from a Chinese vendor about to have an IP clearly looking to generate interest. Enderle has less than zero credibility.
Ian Bell on May 1st, 2007 at 7:04 PM:
To Talkstr8t:
I really thought you had a lot going for you until you got to the Enderle statement. You clearly know your technical specifications, but lack any sort of marketing insight - which Rob clearly gets.
Nothing like educating people with facts, then topping it off with an unprofessional remark. I think that is the difference between contributing, and trolling.
With that being said, what Rob is pointing out and Wal-Mart are doing makes sense. But will it curb Blu-Ray growth? I certainly hope not, as I think it's a better format personally. And can Wal-Mart really impact the growth of a product like this? Selling their Linux-based Linspire systems is one thing, but going with a cheap next-gen Chinese HD DVD player is another. It seems like an oxymoron, a high-end player being sold to the cheapest bidder.
Larry Kent on May 1st, 2007 at 7:23 PM:
Well said Ian.
I think Rob's assessment makes sense. What I got out of the retraction statement that Chinese company put out is that they personally did not get the bid, but that other Chinese manufacturers are currently bidding on it. That does tell me that Wal-Mart is looking to add a cheap HD DVD player to their line-up. How could it not be that clear?
AndyDix on May 5th, 2007 at 10:04 PM:
Would Wal-Mart be so stupid as to support a format (HD-DVD) that only a couple studios release exclusive movies, it even lags behind Blu-Ray when movies are released on both formats.
HD-DVD recently released a statement that they would be hitting the 1 million yet Blu-ray reached it sooner even though it was released a year later. Wake up Folks, the reality is here, HD-DVD is on the endangered list.
Jeff on May 8th, 2007 at 1:57 PM:
I hear BD pundits squirming.
Better format? In whose mind? The guy that paid $700-$900 for a BD players that are outsold by HD-DVD players in all major markets? The guy that got suckered into buying an overpriced $599 console ($800 in Europe) with a paltry game library only to see the market universally reject it weeks after each of its regional launches around the world?
For someone that sunk the cost, yes, they are going to say its a better format. No one wants to be made a fool of.
The best format is the one that consumers can easily obtain and use while delivering the core value of what their looking for.
YOU, the collective tech nerds who love specs, may argue that it's about capacity and transfer rates. Wrong. Winning a format war and achieving mainstream penetration is about accessibility - and in mass market terms that means price as the first and primary barrier to Joe Consumer, especially when you're facing a competitive environment. Dont like it? Tough. Deal with it.
Want to soak consumers for revenue? Perfect, BD is the way to go if you are a CE manufacturer. Want to win the format war? A lower-entry-cost format like HD-DVD is a fundamentally better weapon esp. when the picture quality and basic playback experience is arguably the same.
You gearheads forget the fundamentals - people are getting to watch a movie in wonderful HD resolution with a great picture. This is what they want to do. Interactivity, transfer rates, etc. they dont care about. This is problematic for BD given no picture quality differences despite the "theoretical potential" of higher transfer rates and capacity. The fundamental playback experience - put in a disc, press play, watch a movie with a great picture (where you cant really tell any difference between the two formats esp. now they are both using VC1) is NOT fundamentally different for BD compared to HD-DVD.
They dont want to pay a high price for this value proposition however, which is why total blue laser adoption in terms of standalones is lousy, both formats' players are higher than the consumer wants to pay in general. Big content libraries are NOT driving hardware adoption. And dont cite PS3 as canon proof because game consoles are different market. Yes it is blue laser drive penetration, no it is not indicative of actual BD demand - for that we need to look at players.
With lousy standalone player sales and PS3 sales tanking worldwide, and substantial cost differential between both formats players being increased by year end, and Walmart jumping in the fray.... well it doesnt look that hot for BD. But you guys can disagree. Revisit this page at year end.
"can Wal-Mart really impact the growth of a product like this? Selling their Linux-based Linspire systems is one thing, but going with a cheap next-gen Chinese HD DVD player is another. It seems like an oxymoron, a high-end player being sold to the cheapest bidder. "
You need to revisit consumer electronics history 101. Sub-$100 DVD players caused a huge boom in DVD penetration. In the consumer market, PRICE MATTERS when it comes to driving adoption. Somehow most of the BD supporters like to dance around this fundamental part of the BD (and PS3 as evidenced by sales worldwide) value proposition that is broken, and the reason why these kinds of deals are being struck between Walmart and HD-DVD...and NOT the Sony and BD camp.
AndyDix on May 8th, 2007 at 3:36 PM:
What good are cheap players when the contents isn't there, would you play regular DVDs on your next-gen HD-DVD and $2000 HDTVs because Spiderman or Pirates of the Carribean or any Sony and Disney movies are not available on your Cheap players. I think not, even on movies available on both formats, Blu-ray discs are selling better than HD-DVD.
Jeff on May 9th, 2007 at 3:22 PM:
"What good are cheap players when the contents isn't there, would you play regular DVDs on your next-gen HD-DVD ....bla bla bla"
I have news for you. Right now no one cares about the content libraries. By no one I mean the mass market by which either format must rely upon to live and die in this format war. Early adopters and movie geeks, and us tech friendly people are few in number compared to the overall market for disc-based movies.
I say no one cares because the standalone player sales and attach rates prove it. Even though HD-DVD outsells BD in standalone players in Europe and North america by ridiculous factors of 4 to 8 times (larger in Europe), blue laser players overall DONT SELL WELL. The whole segment does not move. The majority of HD-DVD drives shipped worldwide have been from Xbox 360 addons.
1. Ergo, first point - right now the mass market is not buying hi def players in any significant numbers - they do not care. Why? it is too expensive and they are happy enough with DVD.
2. People are buying far less BD units than HD-DVD. Despite a larger content library no one cares. As much as you yell about content it is moot and useless. No one in the mass market is rushing out to buy blue laser players, and even fewer are buying BD even with the better library. People are more concerned with price than they are with whether or not "POTC IS ON BLU RAY! IT R0X0RZ!"
"I think not, even on movies available on both formats, Blu-ray discs are selling better than HD-DVD. "
Addressed by many people many times. When online vendors have half off sales and Sony puts out coupons for movies packed in with the PS3, it is not hard to boost software numbers. And yes, a free certificate redeemed by sending in to the company wont show up in the retail numbers.... but discs bought using DISCOUNTED certificates do as they are still removing BD titles from still inventory.
The recent HD-DVD group buy gimmick is clear evidence of just how fragile an indicator the software sales figures really are. Moreover, if so many people were buying BD in the BD userbase which is 97% PS3's, we would see massive differences in software sales. We are not.
Content as a reason why Blu-ray will win is a loser. It will remain a loser, and the market has already shown it - content is not driving standalone BD player sales. Content (hell either movie OR gaming) is not driving PS3 sales given the drastic nosedives in all regions for that console. Content is not even driving massive software sales for BD software - it took certificates and half off sales. And why is content not driving hardware? Simple, the hardware is more expensive than people will pay. Price is more powerful to consumers than content in their motivations to buy blue-laser players - dont even bother argue because the market has proven it. BD players get outsold widely by HD-DVD players, and the PS3 cant sustain solid sales post-launch anywhere in the world even despite having the dual appeal of being a console and the cheapest BD player in the world.
As PS3 launches have now completed for the major regions we will be in several quarters free from PS3 launch boost and impulse buys of BD movies from new owners, and without coupon-boosted sales. Also, PS3 and BD hardware penetration will slow down notably as sales have slowed dramatically worldwide for the console. Sony has 2-3 million PS3s in retail inventory right now that arent selling well, and retailers are going nuts.
I'm sure that bringing up price as a key to victory irritates BD proponents and owners who have built a rationalization system around consumer reality to justify their stances. Tough. Watch as the market evolves over the next year. Watch the NPD and Media Create numbers. Watch average retail pricing for HD-DVD hardware. Watch more companies like Samsung, LG, and HP go from the BD camp to dual-format.
Watch.
(ノД`) on May 10th, 2007 at 1:26 AM:
Blue-violet laser diode
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200704/07-...
Theron is a supporter of HD DVD of a typical liar. It tells a lie unabashedly by "Blu-ray is MPEG-2", "HD DVD is VC-1". In addition, it doesn't know H.264/MPEG-4 AVC High-profile of PHL (Panasonic Hollywood laboratory) to be high quality more than VC-1 of MS (Microsoft). The supporter of HD DVD of a typical liar doesn't try to accept the reality of the sales comparisons of movies of Blu-ray and HD DVD.
Jeff shows "Time" in which the Blu-ray movie and the coupon are given to PS3 to make it mislead for all of the number of Blu-ray movie sales to depend on the coupon or neither "Region" nor "Title". In addition, it is not written at all that five free HD DVD movie coupons are given to the HD DVD player made by Toshiba between until July 31 in the North America region.
Rob Enderle
You should have noticed that it was a lie because it was being written TDK in the rumor article. TDK is manufactured with the development of the Blu-ray disk. However, there is no business of hardware like the player in TDK. Rob Enderle is a negligent writer.
Jeff on May 10th, 2007 at 10:42 AM:
"Jeff shows "Time" in which the Blu-ray movie and the coupon are given to PS3 to make it mislead for all of the number of Blu-ray movie sales to depend on the coupon or neither "Region" nor "Title". In addition, it is not written at all that five free HD DVD movie coupons are given to the HD DVD player made by Toshiba between until July 31 in the North America region. "
Sorry, your attempt to bail water for BD fails here. The discount coupons (not the free title offers redeemable direct to Sony) for retail do indeed help pump up software sales for BD....because the titles purchased with coupon come direct from retail inventory.
Moreover you have no point in regards to free coupons for HD-DVD - those are redeemed *direct to Toshiba* to collect the free movies and thus are NOT counted in retail sales figures, which is what we are talking about. Bringing it up means nothing.
Let's also examine this:
"Theron is a supporter of HD DVD of a typical liar. It tells a lie unabashedly by "Blu-ray is MPEG-2", "HD DVD is VC-1". In addition, it doesn't know H.264/MPEG-4 AVC High-profile of PHL (Panasonic Hollywood laboratory) to be high quality more than VC-1 of MS (Microsoft)."
So let's avoid the babble and get into real world perpsective. Previously, we heard that the capacity of BD and the xfer rate were assets. Meaning what? Well before with MPEG-2 most of that space (and in many cases only SL BD-ROM) was used up to create a picture that in many cases came up ever so slightly short of HD-DVD in picture quality comparisons. Then now we see BD discs finally using more MPEG-4 and VC-1. Which now in image quality comparisons is by most reviews indistiguishable from HD-DVD's using VC-1.
So Theron may have used the old point about MPEG-2 which isnt valid anymore with BD discs increasingly using advanced codecs. But the important point is that even that being said - you are paying more for a format that HAS NO PICTURE QUALITY ADVANTAGES. So talking about space and transfer rates is utterly idiotic if it yields zero real benefit. You can talk about future benefits, sure... however it only means something if it actually translates to real value to the mainstream consumer, something that they will pay more for. Given the average person will buy a disc, press play, use FF/RW, and chapter skip, and basically look at an HD picture, they are not going to see much difference between either format.
On top of that. Blue-laser sales were an almost infinitesimally small drop in the bucket compared to DVD hardware and software - the mainstream doesnt really care about either format for the most part right now and wont for probably a year or two - it will be dictated by affordability.
Will people pay hundreds of dollars more for a format where they can tell no difference in picture quality now, and in the future if actual PQ improves for BD, they will only be able to see PQ improvements on 1080p screens that are at least 50" or larger? You guys do realize the majority of HD sets are like 42" and below right? Also that the bulk of the HD sets being sold right now and for a few years are 720p and 768p right? Real world takeaway: the mass market will not see a PQ difference between either format despite any theoretical advancements BD may make, on the TVs they typically buy.
The supporter of HD DVD of a typical liar doesn't try to accept the reality of the sales comparisons of movies of Blu-ray and HD DVD. "
(ノД`) on May 10th, 2007 at 9:44 PM:
Jeff
Therefore, answer the Blu-ray coupon whether is "When was it distributed?", "In which region was it distributed?", and "Which title?".
Do you tell a lie that the Blu-ray movie sales are always done by the coupon and have any advantages?
Even if you declare that you do not count the figure of a free coupon of Toshiba, it is
meaningless. Nonsense.
nigel on May 16th, 2007 at 6:11 AM:
Can someone tell us where to go to find accurate sales statistics for HD DVD players and movies V Blue Ray machines and movies- also PS3 sales-then maybe we can judge for ourselves who is winning without the emotional hype
(ノД`) on May 25th, 2007 at 5:00 AM:
http://www.funaiworld.com/investors/financial_repo...
FUNAI won BILLION DOLLAR SUPPLIER in fiscal year 2006 from Wal-Mart this year. FUNAI plans to sell the Blu-ray player.
Jeff on Jun 4th, 2007 at 10:20 AM:
Therefore, answer the Blu-ray coupon whether is "When was it distributed?", "In which region was it distributed?", and "Which title?".
Do you tell a lie that the Blu-ray movie sales are always done by the coupon and have any advantages?
Even if you declare that you do not count the figure of a free coupon of Toshiba, it is
meaningless. Nonsense. "
Sorry, but you need to brush up on your English comprehension. It is not meaningless. Let me say it again and hopefully it is simple enough this time - a coupon redeemed to the manufacturer, where the manufacturer or its distributor ships you the disc, or a free disc packed in with your machine in the box, are NOT counted in retail sales figures. A coupon for discounts at retail, or a coupon for a free disc redeemable from a retail store, affect RETAIL store inventory and thus affect retail sales figures. So - free HD-DVDs redeemable by sending in coupons to Toshiba, or included in the box, do not count in retail figures such as thus put forth by Nielsen. Discount coupons and free disc offers (regardless of HD-DVD or Blu-ray)that are redeemed at retail, do affect retail inventory, and thus DO influence retail sales figures.
Also: "FUNAI won BILLION DOLLAR SUPPLIER in fiscal year 2006 from Wal-Mart this year. FUNAI plans to sell the Blu-ray player. "
I have news for you. Wal-Mart sells a variety of Funai equipment under the Symphonic label, and no-name, and private label. Most of which are DVD players, LCD TVs, and other electronics. There is no confirmation at all saying Funai is deliver BD players to Wal-Mart this year, though I'm sure its a possibility for the future. No deal is in place with Wal-mart for BD players yet. If you read other details about the deal, the estimated price is around $500 for Funai's BD player that they plan to have finished before the end of the year, that they plan to shop to various retailers as an OEM product. No doubt this will drop some now that Sony is dumping their latest player at $499, but it will still be considerably more expensive than Fuh Yuan's $200 player at Wal-Mart by the end of the year. Blu-ray still loses, regardless of the manufacturer and the angle.
I think you also missed this tidbit: "While its first product is likely to be compatible with Blu-ray Disc, Takanaka said Funai hasn't taken sides in the format battle and is also considering an HD DVD player."
"Can someone tell us where to go to find accurate sales statistics for HD DVD players and movies V Blue Ray machines and movies- also PS3 sales-then maybe we can judge for ourselves who is winning without the emotional hype "
Nigel - for PS3 sales you want to look up the NPD figures for north america, more difficult to come by for Europe but they're out there, and for Japan look up Media Create's numbers. PS3 sold only about 82 k units in April in the US, somewhere around 38k units in Japan, and in Europe it's still unsure but growth has slowed to a snail's pace compared to launch. PS3 is likely to hit less than 6M units for 2007 but they are planning to ship 11M units for the year. A lot of trouble there considering estimates place around 2M units still sitting around right now in retail inventories unsold and moving poorly.
As I said previously on the thread...watch...
(ノД`) on Jun 12th, 2007 at 3:51 PM:
Jeff
You are a liar. The lie is written recently though the number of sales was just increased by HD DVD player's extra. The coupon of five HD DVD players will be added to the announcement of the HD DVD camp. However, initial HD DVD player put the extra, and has thrown in something with add-on Xbox 360. They might have been added to Nielsen's announcement.
For what do you try to appeal in the article on Funai of February? The article is older and more inaccurate than financial report.
http://www.funaiworld.com/investors/financial_repo...
Do you have some powers to make decisions in the plan of Funai?Or, is it a liar?
It is necessary to buy Blue-violet laser diode from SONY and NICHIA to make the high definition disk player.
In addition, when Toshiba and companies other than LG (The cross-license was exchanged) make the HD DVD player, it is necessary to pay the royalty. It is a price that a cheap player of Toshiba disregarded the cost like PS3. Do you think that it is possible to make HD DVD player who is cheaper than Toshiba?
HD DVD stand-alone player is 150,000 units according to the announcement of the HD DVD camp. The Blu-ray camp that sold a more high-priced stand-alone player sold it by 100,000 units. In addition, Blu-ray is 70% in the share of the High-Def disk sales.
joeorc on Jun 24th, 2007 at 10:11 PM:
well since this is such an indication of walmart not looking at selling low cost blu-ray..BOB with all do respect do not count on it.
Funai Confirms Blu-ray Support
Posted May 21, 2007 by Josh
Blu-ray Disc
Low cost electronics manufacturer Funai (who make components for such low costs brands as Sylvania, Emerson, and Magnavox), has revealed in their latest financial report that they plan to launch a Blu-ray player. With 52% of the DVD player/recorder market in the US, it is very likely that a low cost Blu-ray player would be widely adopted, similar to the success Funai continues to have in the DVD market.
No specific player has been announced, nor any time frame, or manufacturer partnerships, but the inclusion of the bullet in their annual financial report alerts stockholders of their intention to move into the Blu-ray market. As a favorite manufacturer of Walmart (who awarded them a Billion Dollar Supplier Prize in 2006), these low cost players would most likely see wide distribution through the retail giant.
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=200
and to top it off:
Wal-Mart Expounds On CE Strategy
By Brent Felgner -- TWICE, 6/8/2007 5:43:00 AM
Rogers, Ark. — Wal-Mart is testing the presence of "HDTV specialists" on its CE sales floors and this summer will introduce several HDTV SKUs in a new program with Sony as part of its recently announced CE initiatives.
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6450174.html
Chau808 on Jun 26th, 2007 at 4:32 PM:
I can't seem to find your article on Blockbuster's recent announcement that 1,700 of their stores will be stocking Blu-ray movies.
I thought you'd comment on their decision being premature since Walmart will obviously flood the market with HD DVD players.
Do you plan on commenting sometime soon?
Tantrum on Oct 25th, 2007 at 5:06 PM:
Looks like Rob was right!
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-war/198-wal+mart...
Ian Bell on Nov 29th, 2007 at 9:48 PM:
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/format-war/wal+mart-is-...
Yay for Rob. Of course he was right. If we had any doubt we would not have published this article.
LegendKiller817 on Mar 13th, 2008 at 8:27 PM:
wow, Jeff, your a fanatic D***, either way,
Blu-Ray Won, so uhh, yeah, thats probablly why you haven't made another one of your page and a half comments that no one reads entirely.
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Larry Case on Apr 27th, 2007 at 2:26 PM:
Well said Rob. I think a lot of people posting about this format war, are letting their emotions get the best of them. They simply do not understand how positioning or marketing goes.
Wal-Mart is a serious force to be reckoned with. It totally makes sense for them to want a sub-$200 HD DVD player.
So when you mention Chinese manufacturers, under what brand labels would we see them as here in the states? RCA/Thompson for example?